Go Back   gprime.net boards > other stuff > debating

debating big whoop, wanna fight about it? (just kidding, keep discussions peaceful)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-25-2007, 04:23 PM   #1
Nicky
g-user
 

Default The Bible, and Homosexuality

Discuss.

I'll show you my views after I get my thoughts in order.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 06:59 PM   #2
Coldin
g-user
 

Default

Make the topic a little more specific?

Are you asking if we think homosexuality is actually a sin? Or the bible actually says it's wrong?

In my opinion, the bible DOES say homosexuality is a sin, but personally i think the wording of it seems a little strange, and the line almost out-of-place, I think it was something added to the bible by men sometime after the 1300s.
Coldin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 07:12 PM   #3
Nicky
g-user
 

Default

It was... and yeah, that is what this subject is about. If it's a sin, and where it actually specifically states that the orientation, actual HOMOSEXUALITY is immoral.

I personally don't think it does.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 07:16 PM   #4
diet poop
I'm a unicorn!
 
Tournaments Won: 1

Default

I think in one random line, on some random page, it says sleepin' with men is bad, but it doesn't make a big deal out of it. I mean, it talks more about stoning adulterers, and people certainly don't follow that rule. It's basically as if some random suggested it, and everyone just said, "Meh, okay." without bothering to follow up on it because they didn't think it even mattered. And besides, why does that person's opinions on the subject even matter? It's not as if they were Jesus or Moses or something. To take it a step further, why do Jesus and Moses' opinions even matter? Just because they're important people doesn't mean that all their views are accurate.

Last edited by diet poop; 11-25-2007 at 07:19 PM.
diet poop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 07:25 PM   #5
Nicky
g-user
 

Default

Um... their opinions are the ones that matter MOST in this topic.

The reason being is that Moses brought up the idea of men being with men/vice versa, yet Jesus never even brings up the topic of Homosexual acts (in recorded scripture... though I'm sure He has opinions).

Not to mention the fact that they are extremely revered individuals in the Bible and this topic is about the Bible...? :P

Sorry, I'm not attacking you. I'm just in a weird mood because of that tree man I saw on youtube.

Last edited by Nicky; 11-25-2007 at 07:33 PM.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 07:55 PM   #6
Coldin
g-user
 

Default

Well, the way I see it, as far as Jesus goes, he was a prophet, not a super-being, he couldn't see the future (not all of it at least) and in his time, homosexuality, while it existed, people didn't openly say they were gay, easy way to get killed. Therefore, it would have mostly just passed under his notice.

In my opinion, I think this whole debate has much more to do with modern ideas than ones in Christ's time. I have already stated my opinion as to how the line got there.

Now, in times where more and more people are openly homosexual, this just allows that group of people who feel that it's "wrong, and unnatural" a little leverage point, where they can go in and point to that line and say, "hey! look! it says here that it's a sin!".

I think it's the same as anything as far as social acceptance goes. Just as with blacks some years ago, people felt it was "wrong and unnatural" for them to live in the same standards, and around white people. Back then, people were quoting a line in the bible that supposively condoned slavery.

Now here the same thing is happening. I believe homosexuality will slowly become more and more accepted. And these people yelling about how it's a sin, and how gay marriage should be outlawed, will be quieted to low grumblings, the same as the racists have about the laws that make discrimination illegal.

This is what SHOULD happen however, this is how our country SHOULD operate, a new group who has been discriminated against slowly being integrated into the American society as people come to tolerate them. However, if, say things don't go the same way they did with black people, and say, laws against gay marriage are passed, and homosexual discrimination laws aren't at all enforced, then that proves our country has fallen on darker times, and the ideas that it was founded upon are no longer being held in higher standard than people's shortcomings in tolerance. This would mean that something has to be done to revive the values of this country
Coldin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 08:23 PM   #7
Nicky
g-user
 

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Well, the way I see it, as far as Jesus goes, he was a prophet, not a super-being, he couldn't see the future (not all of it at least) and in his time, homosexuality, while it existed, people didn't openly say they were gay, easy way to get killed. Therefore, it would have mostly just passed under his notice.
Ah... only Hebrews weren't open about homosexuality. Everyone else was fine with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
In my opinion, I think this whole debate has much more to do with modern ideas than ones in Christ's time.
Fully agree with you there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Now, in times where more and more people are openly homosexual, this just allows that group of people who feel that it's "wrong, and unnatural" a little leverage point, where they can go in and point to that line and say, "hey! look! it says here that it's a sin!".
Only thing is... most people who claim that the Bible is against homosexuality don;t even read or study the Bible's text, let alone have ever even seen the words in print themselves. Actually turning to the passage where it was written... and then sat down and actually contemplated it. And YET, they make all of these other explanations for everything else which they think was taken out of context in the Bible... like tattoos, wine, consumption of shellfish, etc... Why not THAT one? Why not homosexuality? If you're commanded by Jesus HIMSELF to love everyone as God loved you, then wouldn't you be trying to figure out ways to help yourself accept everyone? No matter what race, faith, nationality, sexual preference, and so on? If you really strive to be Christ-like... then you wouldn't be running around with picket signs with bold words "GOD HATES F*GS!" and being hateful towards any group of people... at all. Which actually is something I'm learning as well (not the God hates f*gs part obviously*.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
I think it's the same as anything as far as social acceptance goes. Just as with blacks some years ago, people felt it was "wrong and unnatural" for them to live in the same standards, and around white people. Back then, people were quoting a line in the bible that supposively condoned slavery.
Even though it didn't... it just said that God loved the slaves as much as He did their masters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Now here the same thing is happening. I believe homosexuality will slowly become more and more accepted. And these people yelling about how it's a sin, and how gay marriage should be outlawed, will be quieted to low grumblings, the same as the racists have about the laws that make discrimination illegal.
Until the NEXT thing comes along for Fundamentalist Christians to attack comes along... and then THAT one becomes accepted by the minority. Not that I hate them... but I am irritated by it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
This is what SHOULD happen however, this is how our country SHOULD operate, a new group who has been discriminated against slowly being integrated into the American society as people come to tolerate them. However, if, say things don't go the same way they did with black people, and say, laws against gay marriage are passed, and homosexual discrimination laws aren't at all enforced, then that proves our country has fallen on darker times, and the ideas that it was founded upon are no longer being held in higher standard than people's shortcomings in tolerance. This would mean that something has to be done to revive the values of this country.
Agreed.

btw, there's this documentary thingamajig (wow... that's a real word? there's no signature red line underneath it) called "For The Bible Tell Me So" that I discovered today.. only seen the preview... but I can tell from the preview itself that it's something everyone should see. It's about Christians and their prejudice against homosexuality I think... and it was written by Christians.

Last edited by Nicky; 11-25-2007 at 08:28 PM.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 08:31 PM   #8
MeTal CaNdYcaNe
Foxy gal meow meow
 
Tournaments Won: 2

Default

Okay, this really has nothing to do with any of that.

I've always found it interesting that the only thing Christians (not ALL...like you!) and other homophobes tend to focus on man with man. Why? Because man wrote the bible, and the most important thing to man is himself, so of course that's what he wrote it about. But get 2 girls together and HOT DOGGIE IT'S ON! Vise versa from a girl's point of view.
MeTal CaNdYcaNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 08:33 PM   #9
Coldin
g-user
 

Default

Sounds interesting, while I'm not sure if i could really be defined as a Christian, I am very close, I guess you could call me borderline Christian? I believe in many large points of Christianity, but disagree with other large points.

Still, I remain interested in the views of people of the religion, but mostly, I just believe that organized religion only leads people in the wrong direction, and has motives very different from those the religion itself values.

And metal, honestly, I think that is just because if you look around, there are much more gays than there are lesbians. Dunno why, if men are just more prone to homosexuality? But I think it just has more to do with numbers than any bias from those condemning it, I think if there were tons of lesbians, they would be on them just as bad.

Last edited by Coldin; 11-25-2007 at 08:35 PM.
Coldin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 08:36 PM   #10
MeTal CaNdYcaNe
Foxy gal meow meow
 
Tournaments Won: 2

Default

I really think that for a long time most organized religions have become no more than a cult and a way to control the masses. What really gets me is that people actually fall for it!

There's nothing wrong with believing in something, but to sit there and let someone tell you exactly what to believe without question is quite silly. AND THEN going and preaching it to others with such conviction...Shows you where we're all headed, eh?

I sure am cynical today.
MeTal CaNdYcaNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 08:41 PM   #11
Nicky
g-user
 

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeTal CaNdYcaNe View Post
I really think that for a long time most organized religions have become no more than a cult and a way to control the masses. What really gets me is that people actually fall for it!
There's nothing wrong with believing in something, but to sit there and let someone tell you exactly what to believe without question is quite silly. AND THEN going and preaching it to others with such conviction...Shows you where we're all headed, eh?
I sure am cynical today.
That's what EVERYONE from ANY sort of viewpoint of life at all does! Not just "organized religions".

Your first sentence in that post, is a good example. You learned that from someone. You didn't come up with that on your own. Does that make you a sheep?

No. Absolutely not. We all have a free mind, and WE decide who we do and don't believe, and whether or not we should change our minds.

Using "Religion is just an excuse to have power to control the masses!!!" is no different than "Submit to ALLAH and you shall not be damned. The Christians, Jews and Atheists of the Western World are trying to reel you into their dangerous trap that will send you straight to Hell!!!"

It's all preaching. All of it. And all of us who are convinced we're right will hopefully want others in on our own enlightenment.

Last edited by Nicky; 11-25-2007 at 08:49 PM.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 08:50 PM   #12
Snow
19th President
 

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeTal CaNdYcaNe View Post
Okay, this really has nothing to do with any of that.
I've always found it interesting that the only thing Christians (not ALL...like you!) and other homophobes tend to focus on man with man. Why? Because man wrote the bible, and the most important thing to man is himself, so of course that's what he wrote it about. But get 2 girls together and HOT DOGGIE IT'S ON! Vise versa from a girl's point of view.
I'm glad you included that last line. An old friend of mine (girl) said that two guys was "ok" but two girls was "just wrong" and I seriously stopped talking to her. There were other reasons but that was the point that I realized she was just another dumb and arrogant wannabe prep.
Snow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 08:51 PM   #13
MeTal CaNdYcaNe
Foxy gal meow meow
 
Tournaments Won: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyChris View Post
That's what EVERYONE from ANY sort of viewpoint of life at all does! Not just "organized religions".
Your first sentence in that post, is a good example. You learned that from someone. You didn't come up with that on your own. Does that make you a sheep?
No. Absolutely not. We all have a free mind, and WE decide who we do and don't believe, and whether or not we should change our minds.
Using "Religion is just an excuse to have power to control the masses!!!" is no different than "Submit to ALLAH and you shall not be damned!!!"
What? if you mean everyone follows something at some point in their lives? Yes, I agree. But using my sentence as an example again, I picked it up somewhere, but not from the same place. My views are from many different people from varying times. Not from a single book. THAT'S what throws me, is that people can choose one thing to follow their whole life, then close their minds to anything else. THAT m'dear, is a sheep. I may pick things up and say them, but I'm willing to change my mind.

By the way, those 2 statements are the complete opposite of each other. The first one is saying something AGAINST the second, how submitting to Allah mindlessly is what they're doing.
=====
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Floyd View Post
I'm glad you included that last line. An old friend of mine (girl) said that two guys was "ok" but two girls was "just wrong" and I seriously stopped talking to her. There were other reasons but that was the point that I realized she was just another dumb and arrogant wannabe prep.
Amazing, huh, how stuck up people can be. She's gay, so she MUST hit on every girl she meets! *GET AWAY FROM ME YOU LEZBO!*

Last edited by MeTal CaNdYcaNe; 11-25-2007 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
MeTal CaNdYcaNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 08:58 PM   #14
Coldin
g-user
 

Default

Well, not any viewpoint, just any strong opinions. Religion itself is one of the strongest opinions someone can have, but the thing is that part of some Christian beliefs is not only saying, "This is right, without question, and everyone else is wrong." But also saying, "Those who believe otherwise, you should try to convince them that we are right." THAT is pushing it.

First off, I don't believe you have to be Christian to live a fulfilling life, and i don't believe you have to be Christian to go to heaven. I think Buddhists are much better people than most Christians, just because they value peace so much. The reason I'm not one, is that I just think some of their beliefs are far-fetched.

And not to mention many organized religions do NOT try to get new members constantly. Many Christian Churches have growth plans on par with many military recruitment plans! Hell, they share many of the same techniques!

I've had a guy come up to me and my friend in High School, he talked to us about how if we just came to "Harvest" (a youth group in my area, even the name rings of a cult) our souls would be saved. He finally left after he asked us to pray, and I said I didn't believe in prayer in school, and told him what he was doing shouldn't be allowed by the administrators as it was unconstitutional in a public school. He scurried off pretty quickly after that.

I've spent much time attending another youth group at a church in my area (I had a g/f with an over-religious mother, hard to get a chance to see her). The place is run like a business, their major advertising comes from word-of-mouth, using customers (kids who attended) to gain new customers (they asked them to try to invite people every chance they got).

Most organized Christian churches are more interested in income than in souls. And even those with good intentions try to dance around Constitutional amendments separating church and state, as do local governments. Just like Wal-Mart and McDonalds, it's obvious the Christan Churches are striving for their monopoly. It's just in their case, they don't want to be your only decision for fast food or for shopping, they want to be your only choice for religion, and thats no suspicion, that is a fact.

Jesus tried to spread the word, he didn't try to cram it down people's throats.

Last edited by Coldin; 11-25-2007 at 09:01 PM.
Coldin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 09:04 PM   #15
MeTal CaNdYcaNe
Foxy gal meow meow
 
Tournaments Won: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Jesus tried to spread the word, he didn't try to cram it down people's throats.
Which is what most people forget, therefore ruining it for the ones who haven't.
MeTal CaNdYcaNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 09:11 PM   #16
Nicky
g-user
 

Default

Separation of Church and State goes both ways. The Church can't interfere with the State, and the State can't interfere with the Church. Why the heck can't the kid pray where and how he wants? What is that doing to you?

Freakin-a... people get so uppity and touchy about the littlest most insignificant things.

People protest a prayer circle for rain to come in this drought because it "violates the 5th amendment", and people think it's okay?

It's NOT okay. It's freaking stupid. What is a prayer circle... for something GOOD to come in GA... which allows people of ANY religion mind-you, to just sit together... and pray for some rain in this drought, going to to to anyone? Absolutely nothing. Yet people with their stupid religious prejudices found it necessary to just go and protest for something that wasn't even doing anything to anyone. It would be different if it was a gathering of hate, or of specific religion... but it WASN'T. It was accepting of absolutely everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeTal CaNdYcaNe View Post
What? if you mean everyone follows something at some point in their lives? Yes, I agree. But using my sentence as an example again, I picked it up somewhere, but not from the same place. My views are from many different people from varying times. Not from a single book. THAT'S what throws me, is that people can choose one thing to follow their whole life, then close their minds to anything else. THAT m'dear, is a sheep. I may pick things up and say them, but I'm willing to change my mind.
By the way, those 2 statements are the complete opposite of each other. The first one is saying something AGAINST the second, how submitting to Allah mindlessly is what they're doing.
I suggest you put your religious biases aside for one second the sake of debate. Alright? I can't even argue with you.

How is it that only people who believe what YOU believe are the only ones in this world that aren't mindless? And yet everyone else in the world is? Anyone at all who believes in God is automatically stupid? Automatically brainwashed? Automatically has has no personal influence at ALL in their own decisions? Don't you tell me you don't agree with that, because I know you do. You all do. WE all do. Everyone in a different religious minority believe that everyone in the world excluding themselves have less knowledge of the absolute truth of what the world should be like.

What about ex-Atheists? What about people who have lived their whole LIVES either taught, or simply convinced that there IS no God and then they grow up to become a Jew, or a Wiccan, or a Hindu, or YES! Dare I say it... a Christian.

As for your "book" comment... like I said, we learn everything from books, and word of mouth. We as humans seldom ever actually figure out anything on our own. We like to think we do, but we don't. We just repeat the words and thoughts of other people.

Okay... so you base your life on more than just one book? That's fine.

Perhaps you forgot this (not an insult)... but the Bible is actually transcripts of 66 individual books put into one. Each author having completely different views on life, and each one interpreting their own faith through a different light. The Jewish people don't even read the second half.

There are also books written to help people develop a better understanding of their own faith that they couldn't get from the Bible alone. These books have been around for centuries... and started, actually, when the books of the New Testament were added to the Bible. They weren't part of he original Torah... That's the biggest change this faith has ever had... when people crossed over from Judaism to Christianity, or even trippier, when people held onto their Jewish faith and yet accepted Christ as their Lord, even when their fellow Fundamentalist Jews persecuted them for it.

Christians change their minds too. ALL the time. Why do you think there are so many denominations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeTal CaNdYcaNe View Post
Amazing, huh, how stuck up people can be. She's gay, so she MUST hit on every girl she meets! *GET AWAY FROM ME YOU LEZBO!*
Erm... sorry but, where did that part even come from...? O_o

Last edited by Nicky; 11-25-2007 at 09:28 PM.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 09:21 PM   #17
MeTal CaNdYcaNe
Foxy gal meow meow
 
Tournaments Won: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyChris View Post
I suggest you put your religious biases aside for one second the sake of debate. Alright? I can't even argue with you.
How is it that only people who believe what YOU believe are the only ones in this world that aren't mindless? And yet everyone else in the world is? Anyone at all who believes in God is automatically stupid? Automatically brainwashed? Automatically has has no personal influence at ALL in their own decisions? Don't you tell me you don't agree with that, because I know you do. You all do. WE all do. Everyone in a different religious minority believe that everyone in the world excluding themselves have less knowledge of the absolute truth of what the world should be like.
That's fair.
But I didn't mean to make it sound like that. I'm not saying all Christians are cotton headed ninny muggins. It's just there are a lot out there who ruin it for everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyChris View Post
What about ex-Atheists? What about people who have lived their whole LIVES either taught, or simply convinced that there IS no God and then they grow up to become a Jew, or a Wiccan, or a Hindu, or YES! Dare I say it... a Christian.
Them going around saying that there absolutely is no god is just as stupid as saying that there absolutely is one. There are close minded nerds of every religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyChris View Post
As for your "book" comment... like I said, we learn everything from books, and word of mouth. We as humans seldom ever actually figure out anything on our own. We like to think we do, but we don't. We just repeat the words and thoughts of other people.
Okay... so you base your life on more than just one book? That's fine.
Perhaps you forgot this (not an insult)... but the Bible is actually transcripts of 66 individual books put into one. Each author having completely different views on life, and each one interpreting their own faith through a different light. The Jewish people don't even read the second half.
There are also books written to help people develop a better understanding of their own faith that they couldn't get from the Bible alone. These books have been around for centuries... and started, actually, when the books of the New Testament were added to the Bible. They weren't part of he original Torah... That's the biggest change this faith has ever had... when people crossed over from Judaism to Christianity, or even trippier, when people held onto their Jewish faith and yet accepted Christ as their Lord, even when their fellow Fundamentalist Jews persecuted them for it.
Christians change their minds too. ALL the time. Why do yo think there are so many denominations?
You still don't see what I'm getting at. The bible may be 66 books for the price of one, but it's still ONE BOOK. It stays the same, and while it is open for interpretation, many don't see that, and therefore stick to exactly what it says, where as others may continually look for many sources and draw opinions continually from those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyChris View Post
Erm... sorry but, where did that part even come from...? O_o
Oh, that was pertaining to something else, not with you, I was answering Pink Floyd XD
MeTal CaNdYcaNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 09:26 PM   #18
Nicky
g-user
 

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeTal CaNdYcaNe View Post
You still don't see what I'm getting at. The bible may be 66 books for the price of one, but it's still ONE BOOK. It stays the same, and while it is open for interpretation, many don't see that, and therefore stick to exactly what it says, where as others may continually look for many sources and draw opinions continually from those.
I was making the point that the second half of the Bible... the NT, didn't come in until centuries later. It completely changed the world.

Change. Open-mindedness. Acceptance of new ideas.

That was the point I was making.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeTal CaNdYcaNe View Post
Oh, that was pertaining to something else, not with you, I was answering Pink Floyd XD
Oooooh.... okay.

I actually didn't see Floyd say anything. :P I was more focused on you and Coldin. XD

(by NO means was that meant to insult)

But anyway:

BACK ON TOPIC

Last edited by Nicky; 11-25-2007 at 09:29 PM.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 09:29 PM   #19
Coldin
g-user
 

Default

FIRST please, stop editing posts to add new ideas, it's really hard to keep up with them in that case, if you just add a new post it makes it easier for us to see.

NEXT, I had NOTHING against the kid praying in school, but interrupting MY lunch and my friends, and ASKING us to pray with him is a totally different matter. Not to mention, I probably could have been scolded for telling him to get lost. He was president of the CHRISTIAN CLUB in a public high school.

The whole believing a book thing, I still stand by what I said about that in my other post NC.

Now, NC, in MY post i never said that anyone who follows religion is mindless. In doing that I would be calling myself mindless.I'm not sure if you attend, or are part of a church. But you definitely seem to uphold all of the typical Christian views. My post is more regarding ORGANIZED religion and churches. In my experience, in my area, (and much of the United States in my knowledge) this is what I see as far as ORGANIZED Christian Churches.

I'm not saying that you, as a Christian, are disrespectful of people's beliefs. Honestly, the way I see it you have come under more attacks for your Christian views on this forum than anyone else. But you must understand, that the alienation caused by these views is due to everyones past experience with the organized Christan Churches.

This is why, I won't call myself a Christian, the actions of the churches, not only go against my beliefs, but are also disgusting, and they, in all honesty, cause me to be too embarrassed to ever call myself a Christian.

Many people DO follow the churches blindly, they are one of the largest organizations in the United States, and their methods and motives are highly questionable. Christianity is also so widely accepted and integrated into our culture that they have their hands strongly planted in government decisions, which is very obviously unconstitutional.

Now, I feel I have to ask you, as a Christian, do you condone the methods, and decisions of the Christian church? Or do you uphold your values as a single Christian, and your interpretation of the bible, without recognizing an organized Christian Church as leading you in your belief of religion?
Coldin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 10:28 PM   #20
Nicky
g-user
 

Default

Sorry about the editing... I actually talk that way in real life too. XD I interrupt myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Now, I feel I have to ask you, as a Christian, do you condone the methods, and decisions of the Christian church? Or do you uphold your values as a single Christian, and your interpretation of the bible, without recognizing an organized Christian Church as leading you in your belief of religion?
I do not condone all of the methods of Christian churches... Such as the ones that promote hatred, or fear (which essentially is hatred) towards anyone for being different than they. Which actually occurs more against other Christians than they do anyone of any other religion. It's a whoole different ball game if you're actually in the circle. I also don't agree with peoples views on communion. Saying that if you don't do it EVERY SINGLE day or as often as possible then you'll suffer curses. That's just... not the case. Plus by saying that you completely disregard the many passages that state that no matter what God loves you and that grace may abound to even those who don't believe (I forgot the exact addresses... so just bear with me, I'm learning this stuff gradually).

I also don't agree with people's views on tithes and offerings. For ONE, just because you aren't constant in giving money to a specific church group you attend doesn't mean that you're stingy, stealing, or that you'll... again, suffer curses. What you sew doesn't have any specific boundary, though people are convinced that the only thing you can contribute to God and His ministry is money. You constantly sew. Every day and every moment of your entire life. Sewing love or knowledge of the true gospel (though BEFORE you jump on me... I'm not referring to "jamming it down people's throats"... the Bible, though again I forgot what passage, doesn't even condone that. obviously God's smart enough to know that people won't listen if you force them to) if in my opinion FAR more important that any amount of money. With that said, however... if you can afford to give money every Sunday/Wednesday to your Church, then I think yes, you should do it, but you're not less of a person if you are inconsistent or just don't do it at all.

For one, if Jesus died so that we would be FREE of said curses, then that just makes it all irrelevant. People are still trying to hold onto the law when the law isn't even enforced anymore. It's like telling a kid to keep his hands off the gate long after the "wet paint" sign has been removed.

Now in terms of my personal faith... Well, I suppose I should admit that I am more individual in what I believe and am less likely NOW (though two years ago I wouldn't be) to either start my own ministry... or go to public churches only every once in a while... which I plan on doing in the future. Both really... But anyway.. back on topic. Most of what I know, and who I am today as a Christian I learned from my mother... though her fiance (the guy I refer to as "dad" in some of my posts), is just as spiritually developed as she is (though still I know more from my mother than from he... as of yet), and more in some areas, but she's also more developed than he is in some areas as well. We actually all live together! Which a lot of really religious people will look down upon as "sexual immorality"... even though they don't have sex, and sleep in separate bedrooms. But anyway, yeah... I've really learned a lot from them. They're the two smartest people I know. I trust either with my life.

Organized religion has played a role in my faith somewhat... bot in all honesty, my mom spends so much time telling us where most preachers, with the exception of three, where they are in error in their teaching... and she's right actually. My parents, and those three other pastors... think and teach soo far differently than any other Christian mentors I've ever known do that... well, it's pretty astounding. They don't teach hate. They don't teach fear. They don't teach ignorance... My parents actually push us (my siblings and I) to ask questions. They WANT us to actually make our own decisions. They want for us to have a full understanding.

And they don't make us feel stupid for asking obvious questions... they DO, however, make us feel stupid for saying stupid things like... laughing about finding a hobo looking through the garbage can outside. With that we will be immediately shut down, and then told how it's extremely un-Christian of us to think lowly of anyone else... because we're all equally "laughable" as human beings. We all have flaws and problems. Eck... not to mention the fact that when I did say that.... what made my mom really angry about it was the fact that just a few months earlier we were in the same situation as that man.

Don't interpret this however, as me bashing the organized Christian body. That's the farthest thing from what I'm doing.

But um... yeah.... that's kind of all I can think of to say at the moment.

If you have more questions I'd be happy to know what they are.

Last edited by Nicky; 11-25-2007 at 10:35 PM.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2007, 01:26 AM   #21
Coldin
g-user
 

Default

Well your situation is that of being taught by your parents (or in this case near-parents). The question is do your parents let you choose to follow their religion, from what you say they do, but please realize that for most kids, it isn't an option.

I can tell you that many parents force their kids to follow a religion blindly, unquestionably, and shirked of their human responsibility to choose for themselves (the responsibility I discussed, also in that other post) they fall into the same habit of their parents in letting other people decide for them.

Remember how I said I went to a youth group because of an ex-girlfriend with an over-religious mother? Well she was forced into religion, of course she was all into it, doing things for the church and all, but also she had problems making decisions for herself, and I can tell you the reason was because her mother had made decisions for her at first, then her religion made all the decisions for her after that. She couldn't make any real decisions for herself, ever, and when she had to she couldn't handle it, any of it, it was actually pretty sad when I think back on it.
Coldin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2007, 07:44 AM   #22
Nicky
g-user
 

Default

Um, okay... yeah, I do realize that for nearly all children to ever live there isn't an option. I'm not stupid. My family is beyond rare.

Your question about whether or not we would be allowed to practice whatever form of worship we wanted. The answer is yes.

My mom's stance on it is this:

"No matter what you do to yourself or anyone else... if you grow up to be a mass murderer or cereal rapist, I will still love you as much as I do now."

I mean, those weren't the exact words... but she said that a long time ago when I asked her that question. I definitely remember the mass murderer part. ;)

But um... yeah. We really don't even talk that much about our faith to one another... but when we do, they're usually full-fledged conversations like the ones we have on this board... only... more polite, and more open to actually listening to one another talk. :P

But um, yeah... my mom makes it clear to us that even though she believes that we should listen to what she says, as do I... she still allows for us to explore and find things out for ourself. Most Christian families would say my mom was too soft if they really knew her. Well, most families in general.

Everyone always thinks she must be Mommy Dearest simply because we're so polite and well-behaved around people... and her. So she pulls our hair and yells at us and curses at us is we actually respect and love our mom? WHAT IF! And this is just an observation now... but what if... maybe, she's just a good mother?

Honestly... as a kid behavior-wise, what I consider to be completely crazy and out-of-line, most parents would call "a lucky find" or something. If sex was the worst problem a parent had to deal with their children they would say they did pretty well.

But thing is... O_o, we don't even have sex. We don't do drugs, we don't gossip mercilessly about anyone and everyone with breasts and legs. I mean... honestly. I'm harder on MYSELF than my mother is on me. Well, I don't do those things. I don't want to speak on behalf of my siblings... I really don't know anything about them anymore. They're like roommates now and I'd rather not go into that...

I can't name a single unjust disciplinary demand I've been asked that would be considered by most non-Christians as hateful, or crazy in any way. I say most because apparently now it's child-abuse to spank your child... >_> Whatever...

There's a difference between a slap on the area with which the child was acting like in the first place, and beating the child in blind rage.

I mean honestly, the worst punishment I can think of that I've ever received from my mother is... exactly that. A slap on the butt. And then a hug emediately afterwards with an explanation that even though she caused me pain, she did it because she loved me, and didn't want for me to one day discover an even worse pain if I didn't learn that what I was doing was wrong right then. Things like blaming the other siblings for something I did... you know, things that are at the time somewhat innocent and cute for the time being, but can and will eventually develop into life habits that will ruin the life of myself and more anyone who came near me. This stuff about her punishment I wasn't TOLD by her... just so you know. I was a very strange child. I always agreed with someone if they punished me.. with very very few exceptions... all of which exceptions only from one person in particular. Well, two... kind of. Spankings were rare though, I'll just give you that right now.

The second "worst" punishment I got from her for anything, as well as the more often occurring one as a child, were lectures. I put "worst" in quotations, because whenever she lectured us about something... she never actually had the intent of making us feel bad about ourselves. In fact she never does. I only learned this year that whenever she reprimands me for anything (which now is somewhat rare), it's not to scare me out of being 'bad', it's just for me to realize where I was wrong... and then to make the conscious decision to fix it.

~~~

But um, yeah... I was raised in a Christian household, I am taught by my mother and soon-to-be father and actually listen and apply what they have to say. So does that make me brainwashed? Does it make me naive to think that gee I dunno, perhaps the woman who gave birth to me might actually have a brain in her head? Is it bad or stupid or wrong of me to actually revere my mother as a loving mentor who only wants good for me? That's a mother is supposed to be... if I'm not mistaken.

Oh I dunno.... whatever.......... I can barely think straight... it's midnight and it's a school night... -_-

Last edited by Nicky; 11-27-2007 at 12:14 AM.
Nicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2007, 12:19 AM   #23
gabrielwhist
Banned
 

Default

I don't know the Bible well enough to comment on homosexuality in the Bible. However, I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality, or that if there is a God that he would have a problem with homosexuality.
gabrielwhist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2007, 07:19 PM   #24
The Perfect Seven
g-spot
 

Default

I didn't read the whole thread because I'm lazy but here's my two cents. I'm talking only about Christian doctrine here so please disregard your personal experiences and belief system as I am disregarding mine as I say this.

The Bible says homosexual sex is a sin. Yes, it also says tattoos are a sin and eating lizards is a sin. But Jesus came to get rid of those laws, so we don't have to follow them anymore and they aren't mentioned in the New Testament. But homosexuality is, it is still forbidden in the NT, so we can't just disregard it as part of the "old law."

Speaking from my Christian background, I do not believe it is a sin to be of homosexual orientation, or attracted to the same sex. It is not a sin for a straight person to be attracted to a person of the opposite sex, neither is it a sin for a gay person to be attracted to the same sex. After all, we all know your attractions are not something you can choose.

You do choose, however, your actions and your lifestyle. Gay people don't choose to be gay; but they do choose whether or not to lust, or whether or not to have sex, and that's where it becomes a sin. Some people are like "well that's not fair to gay people that God won't let them lust or have sex" but we forget that God forbids ALL lust and ALL sex (the only exception being your spouse) for EVERY person, regardless of sexual orientation. The Bible doesn't discriminate. Everyone is called to a life of celibacy. Celibacy is hard to do, obviously, but I don't think that's an excuse to ignore certain commandments. Biblically, everyone is called to "deny themselves" and follow God's rules. (It seems to me that the Church has this view that gay lust is worse than straight lust, and gay sex is worse than straight sex, when in reality they are not any different in God's eyes. And by the way, being gay isn't a one-way ticket to hell, so don't believe the hype).

Of course there is that argument "well gay people can't get married so they can never have sex" and honestly I don't know the Biblical answer to that one. I have heard a number of miraculous "conversion/healing stories" of ex-gay Christians, and that is great for them, but I certainly do not think that works for everyone. Biblically, man and woman were made for each other, being complete in each other, the way God intended. Some people have all the faith in the world but will never be able to have that kind of relationship, it is a "thorn in the flesh" so to speak.

That is not necessarily my personal opinion on the subject so don't be shocked by what I have said. My personal opinion changes every day but like I said I am speaking strictly from a Christian standpoint.
The Perfect Seven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2007, 09:11 PM   #25
Sen
Venture Capitalist
 

Default

Goddammit. I've been back a few minutes and I'm already pissed. This is the problem with American society, it's a country run by fear and ignorance. Someone says some bullshit piece, and by some horrid stroke of glass-breaking bad luck, it gets by the 'gatekeepers' (the intellectuals who usually keep the dumb-ass bullshitters in line). Joe Smith sees this, and hears no objection, so he picks it up and builds on it. And because Joe isn't actually dumb (just blind) he actually builds something beautiful. And that's America in a nutshell: the Taj Mahal... floating in a moat of watery bile and green feces.
Beautiful logics built on bullshit is bullshit through and through.

Now what was I the topic...

Ah, yes. There are about 36 separate references related to homosexuality/the gender structure of a relationship in the bible that I've counted, from Adam's creation to Paul's letter to the Corinthians. About 4 are direct condemnations.



You are free to do as you please with your life. And you are free to believe that Christians are backward people who are afraid of change (Hell, I believe that). But if I'm willing to accept that, then you must respect the fact that conformity on certain issues is not an option.
Sen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2005-2007 Gprime.Net