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Old 04-19-2007, 02:21 AM   #51
CrazyMLC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mute math View Post
I can't read any of your arguments because they are all full of incredibly irritating grammatical errors. Half of your sentences aren't even full sentences; they have missing words and just plain don't make sense.
Good day to you, too.
Talking to me, I guess?

anyway, back on topic,

my agruement against the video.

1: you need certain mass, and LARGE, LARGE amounts of energy.
2: and we actually might create new life when we open peanut butter. it doesn't have to be new life. maybe mold. you know?
3: the guy in the video is overly uninformed.
4: thats almost like saying that babies cant be born. they evolve. from a little spec to annoying crying jerks that poop on you. bad analogy i know.
5: as said above on the terrible baby analogy, new life takes time to evolve, because babies arent born in 1 second instead of 9 months.

its almost like saying "even though a life time of opening peanut butter jars, i have never opened one and found god inside"

(Lol, just a joke.)

Last edited by CrazyMLC; 04-19-2007 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:29 AM   #52
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That's not so absurd


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Originally Posted by CrazyMLC View Post
its almost like saying "even though a life time of opening peanut butter jars, i have never opened one and found god inside"
(Lol, just a joke.)


Every now and then people do actually find god in food, i remember seeing a piece of toast with the face of jesus on it on ebay.... Does that prove creationism wrong? lol


To Coldin:
Yes i guess my post was pretty much science vs religion, but that is basically what the creationism vs evolution argument is. My point was that i still struggle to believe how any educated person can think it is all literal, word for word. It is quite rediculous.




On a somewhat unrelated point, do creationists think that there is no life anywhere else in the universe? personally i think it's rather unfathomable to think that there isn't.... if it happened here it can happen somwhere else, Be that by the hand of god or not.

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Old 04-19-2007, 06:13 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by bv2 View Post
It is all irrelevant.
As long as: Christ was killed on the cross 2000+ years ago WITH witnesses ( roman and jewish) and then 3 days later, came back to life, as witnessed again by many many people, proven by the fact that the entire roman empire (the guys that were in charge of nailing him there in the first place...) was converted to Christianity after seeing a dead man walking around alive and well; then, there is nothing more to say.
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Originally Posted by Frankoman View Post
BV2, good point. we can leave it there.
no. not good point.
we are talking about CREATIONISM in the old testament. long before jesus and infact moses (the messiah before jesus) existed. you just summed up how romans became catholics.
you my freind should read this thread a bit more!
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:59 AM   #54
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We could have been created in 1994 with everything in place, including our memories.
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:17 AM   #55
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So I'm in class and bored, so I was playing Death By Hinge...

And this is what I could manage:



I have a 1600DPI Razer mouse, and the speed is incredibly high. I think that makes a big difference. The best I could get with a touchpad is like ~5000.
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Old 04-19-2007, 11:14 AM   #56
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I'll shorten this for all you with short attention spans. I'll try to answer my best, just woke up :P
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Now this is just to much...you don't understand the Big Bang Theory?
Interesting indeed. I was raised that the Big Bang was when three asteroids collided, they all shot from the sun.
Quote:
Because PEANUT BUTTER does NOT contain the necessary elements and compounds for life, and DEFINATELY not arranged in the correct ways.
Maybe not, but as you notice in the Video, they use ants as an example, ants and other small organisms could survive off of peanut butter, and if evolution is the logical reason, those small organisms could evolves to humans off of the peanut butter.
Quote:
WRONG, as you said yourself, life has only existed on Earth for half of earth's time in existence, LIFE WAS NOT DEALING WITH THE EARTH "WHEN IT WAS FIRST CREATED"
True, but when the earth was created, how could all the molten lava, poisons, methane, carbon and nitrogen disappears so quickly?
I say quickly because in records, there was life before humans, and far before humans, Dinosaur fossils are found, and with our technology, we know the dates of there death and birth.
now I saw your explanation, but that seems like it would take too long.
OH before I continue, I can't believe i never mentioned this, but when the guy talks about the peanut butter and mentions "life couldn't start in the peanut butter if another life contaminates it"
Think of that other life as GOD. He brought us.
Now, as you have said, your Christian but believe in evolution. I have a question, do you think god had something to do with the start of evolution, or do you go straight out for science, which lies about a lot of things just because they are afraid of the truth?
Quote:
--For example, the parting of the seas.... a much more logical explanation is that the tide came in. things inevitably get distorted over time, the story of what happened may have been passed down through a number of generations before being written down.
Think, how could the seas part at the exact time of moses' travel out? On the History channel, they say the sea dried up, and this only happens ever fifty thousand years... Umm... Yeah that is just idiotic, every fifty thousand years the river dries up in this exact spot, and it JUST so happened to dry up when moses wanted it to... Umm what’s wrong with that? Normally science would say that is unproportional for they say a lot of things they've proven from the bible as fake..
Quote:
. --- Also, the 'floods' given recent events (tsunami/hurricane catrina) it is most likely that it was simply a natural disaster, not direct intervention.
Now think about religion. All these places that are getting hit by the strongest natural disasters heard of, what are they? Most of them are anti catholic.
Like New Orleans never got hit by a hurricane that strong in it's history, so one day it does? Then the hurricane of 38 which hit Rhode Island and Long Island, during that time, people up there were steering far from god, and they got hit by a hurricane which was a 4 out of 5 so I hear.
Then there is the west cost of America, home to the most sinners in the world, a proven fact by experts. They are getting hit hard with earthquakes, fires, rising tides and more.

Now lets look at Europe. Italy, they never get hit with anything bad, is it because of the pope? No. they are 98% catholic.

Now look at England… They are diving far away from Christianity, but what is it doing to them?
Firstly, the British isles are being flooded, and there land is being washed over by rising tides.
Then, they are running out of land. They are becoming like Japan, and almost have no lands left to build.

Then France, surprisingly, they are one of the most unchristian Christian nations. They are about 23% Christian as a whole. And what is happening to them?
There economy is crashing, and there under slow development. If this continues, there economy will crash, and they will have a depression, like when the stock markets crashed.

And you never answered how whale fossils could be found on top of mountains by plate tectonics. I’m interested in learning about that.


Oh and I don't want to get everyone pissed at me for posting what is happening to contries. It's obvious America is dead, some say it will soon become a third world country.

EDIT:
You all are very smart beond my knowledge. I'm glad I got to argue with you.

Last edited by Frankoman; 04-19-2007 at 11:18 AM. Reason: Thanking people
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:04 PM   #57
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And I'll break up the pseudo-intelectual duscussion once again to say I ousted my old score :D

I suppose a screenshot's not really fair when we all know there's hax. But hey. I know It's legit. ^_^



You may now resume your discussion :D
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:43 PM   #58
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hows this? agree to dissagree on how life started. it happend. we cant change that. lets concentrate on how to stop life from ending.
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:00 PM   #59
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Yeah, so I got over a mil on death by hinge.
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:26 PM   #60
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Ok, I'm stopping this, sorry Frankoman, but you are to ignorant of scientific theories for me to continue argueing with you.

(And by the way, Christians are rich, gets them into all the nicest places.)
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:00 PM   #61
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ALright. i was done anyways. Glad to have had that debate with you though!

But can you please explain how whale bones can be found on mountains! I can't find it on google.
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Old 04-20-2007, 01:30 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankoman View Post
ALright. i was done anyways. Glad to have had that debate with you though!
But can you please explain how whale bones can be found on mountains! I can't find it on google.
How come I could? http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...sils+mountains

Enjoy.
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:12 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by they View Post
And I'll break up the pseudo-intelectual duscussion once again to say I ousted my old score :D
I suppose a screenshot's not really fair when we all know there's hax. But hey. I know It's legit. ^_^
[qimg]http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/8126/holyhellnz1.png[/qimg]
You may now resume your discussion :D
why do you keep painting over your ie7 tabs?

youre looking at dirty inernet sites arent you?
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Old 04-20-2007, 01:04 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
(And by the way, Christians are rich, gets them into all the nicest places.)
If you mean rich in spirit, than you're correct. But if you are talking about money(which is the most likely situation of course), you are quite wrong my friend. Btw, I'm not Catholic for the record.
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Old 04-20-2007, 02:22 PM   #65
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Default Stop it!

good god, some of the science in this thread is awful and because after three days of trying to get over 10,000 points on death by hingeand failing I shall correct the science I know is definately wrong just in case anybody decides to use it in an actual argument

- Babies do NOT evolve in the womb, they grow.

- Evolution is just a way of development, a gene mutates and gives a particular organism a different characeristic which isn't always an advantage, e.g. cancer.

- Three meteors from the sun created the big bang? BS. Would this be the sun a few billion years AFTER the big bang. Also you talk about huge amounts of energy being needed, correct, three meteors worth? not correct. The big bang theory suggest compacted the entire universe and beyond into a space infinately small (nuclei of an atom small) that takes a f****** huge amount of energy.

- Someone said that organisms couldn't survive when the earth was created because of acids, heat and lava etc. There's an organism called an extremophile that can survive huge temperature ranges and can adapt to live off the most available gas, hell some plants even do it at the bottom of the sea. They can survive by using sulphur in respiration. (which is not breathing)

- If I were given 100 billion years to live? I would be precisely the freaking same, I would look one hell of a lot older and I might have adapted to withstand hotter or colder emperatures but my DNA wouldn't change that's not evolution that's transformation which is highly frowned upon. That theory states that organisms can will themselves to change and the change will therefore occur. I can't see seven foot tall grannies can you?

I do realise that several of you will now hate me but these are valid facts if you think anyhing is dodgy and have proof then just tell me.
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Old 04-21-2007, 01:40 PM   #66
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it dosent take huge amounts of energy to create a living cell (this is in reference to the meteor thing i hope)
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Old 04-21-2007, 02:01 PM   #67
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I just felt like I should also put some more factual information.

1. As learned in a high school science class, in order for life to be created from exposure to heat and energy, there has to be the correct setting. As in right chemicals, minerals, etc. Therefore, life cannot be created from a jar of peanut butter because it does not meet the requirements.

2. For whoever said that the Da Vinci Code was just a story, actually read the book. All of the facts and information given has all be found and proven. The Priory of Sion and the Knights Templar are very real, and too was the secret they kept. The only thing fictional about the book is the characters and the way they find everything out. It is historical fiction, which means that the information is true, but the story around it is fictional.

3. If evolution is false and creationism/the bible is right, that would make the world about 6,000 years old. It has been proven many, many time over and over again that there has been life before that time. Actually, about 4,599,994,000 years before that.
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Old 04-21-2007, 11:17 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchdude View Post
Animals were fossilized instantly by massive amounts of water that covered the whole earth (according to the biblical account). This is supported by finding whale fossils on top of mountains and trees fossilized upside-down.
Is it true that "truth is what you believe it to be" or not? Answer carefully...
ever heard of tectonic plate movement ? might want to look into it, also into where the plate boundries are relative to where these fossils were supposedly found (never heard of a whale fossils being found on mountians)

as for the trees being upside down, preception is relative. look at the pompei site if you want a good idea in how things can be mixed and moved around.

also, the biblical account, doesn't make sense, if there was a giant flood, and there were "8" suvivors then why are we not all buck toothed, retards caused by generations of inbreeding. (which ususally shows up within the first 2 - 3 generations of siblings)

medically, the "bible" theory cannot be supported, if you think evolution has stopped, why are we not covered in thick hair head to toe, why are people becoming taller, why are they living longer, why are traits in people from ages ago, not in them now ? evolution hate to say it, is SLOW creationists seem to think that people magically appeared sometime around their scripture, so based on that, the human race has only existed around 2000 years, which as you can guess is complete bullshit.
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Old 04-22-2007, 04:32 AM   #69
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Interesting debate you guys have got going on. :)

Frankoman, you seem to have genuinely good intentions and a willingness to strive to understand the other opinions voiced here, and I really appreciate that. It's all too rare in most internet bitchfi—err, disagreements, and it's like a breath of fresh air. ;) However, it also seems that you are uninformed or unfamiliar with some of the factors that support your own arguments, which, sadly, is liable to undermine them. I'll try my best to order the concepts discussed by the "evolutionist side" into a coherent sequence of events in the hopes that the perception of there being "sides" will lessen. (Disclaimer: a large portion of this will be off the top of my head, so forgive me for any scientific inaccuracies.)

It starts with the Big Bang — for the purposes of this story. All the energy that has ever been, or will ever be, exists in the space of, say, the nucleus of an atom. Understandably, there's a lot of built-up pressure there, and it explodes at unbelievable speed, expanding into what later becomes known by us as The Universe. Some of the energy changes states and becomes matter over time.

By "over time", I mean trillions of years. The human mind, as imaginative as it is, is not capable of comprehending a number that large, or a span of time that long. :P The Universe rushes for nobody; it takes as much time to do things as it needs, whether or not certain tiny bits of it (us) understand that.

Gradually, all this energy and matter starts to separate into clumps. As these clumps separate, they thicken and become denser. Some of this stuff condenses into stars, and other smaller bits become what will eventually be planets. Again, this takes a frickin' long time. And it's happening everywhere, over what may as well be thought of as an infinite amount of space. Clumps of clumps of clumps are emerging, so you don't just have suns and planets, but galaxies, groups of galaxies, superclusters, and so on. Throw in a few billion (hundred billion? trillion?) more years, and you have solar systems everywhere.

One of them will be ours. But not yet, obviously.

This particular planet (the one you're seated on) is more or less in its infancy at this point. Nothing's really as defined as it is now. But hey, if it's ready, it's ready. Charles Darwin sums up that first magical moment pretty well if you ask me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia's contributors
In a letter to Joseph Dalton Hooker on February 1, 1871, Charles Darwin made the suggestion that the original spark of life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, [so] that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes". He went on to explain that "at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed."
Clearly, he's using the term "pond" really loosely. :) But read that last part again, because it's important. What he's pointing out is that back then, the Little Protein Molecule That Could was the only thing of its kind anywhere on the planet. There was nothing around to eat it, nothing to sense its presence, nothing but it, some primordial soup and the lifeless chunk of rock it sat on. The same moment of creation could happen again today, and nobody would know because some bacterium would just come along and casually eat it. (Needless to say, peanut butter doesn't make very good primordial soup.)

So back to this lone bit of protein long ago. Well, it's quite literally got all the time in the world, so it does what any good molecule does and engages in chemical reactions. Eventually, the molecule has increased in complexity. Fast forward another really long time, and you find a single-celled organism that has sssslllloooowwwwllllyyyy evolved from bunches of such protein molecules. There are different kinds, too, since different proteins got to interact with different molecules in different places over time. Single-celled organisms rule the Earth, more or less, until more chance mutations hit upon an interesting variation: multi-celled ones.

Continue the evolutionary process ad nauseam for billions of years, and we start seeing awesome stuff like dinosaurs and mammals and hardier variations on the single-celled organisms. Yes, there absolutely are gaps in this history; that's why there are multiple theories for questions like what killed the dinosaurs in such a way that it caused them to be fossilized, or what stages in our own evolution into present-day humans we're missing, because there are gaps there, too. The purpose of science is to learn more about the Universe, in the hopes that new knowledge will gradually help us piece together the answers to some of our questions.

Now, it can take hundreds of thousands of years for the evolutionary process to make even piddly little changes (just as well; have you seen the X-Men movies?), and the entire recorded history of the human race only goes back a few thousand. It's very likely that we just haven't had enough time to really see any noticeable changes. It's thought to be only within the last ten thousand years or so that we became mentally complex enough to start wondering what created us in the first place, leading to spirituality and religion.

And this, of course, doesn't rule out that similar processes have taken place in other places in the Universe. It'd be as if you had an infinite number of testing labs, each with slightly different conditions, and you could just sit back and see which ones did interesting things. Ours would obviously be one of them. Perhaps the exact same "spark of life" occurred on another planet, but one carbon atom was one micron to the left and that ruined the entire potential chain reaction. Perhaps there are some planets where something even more successful took place, and we just haven't found out about it yet.


WHEW! Deep breath. Oy, that was long.


Okay, now you may be thinking that this story conveniently rebukes the notion of the Almighty God creating everything out of nothing and magically plopping us humans here on the Earth. In fact, it doesn't at all.

Well, if the Universe came from the Big Bang, where did the Big Bang come from? Even if all that compression was a result of the collapse of a previous universe, what caused this grand cycle to exist? Or did it really? A truly all-powerful god would undoubtedly find it easy to simply place everything in its place and press Play! The truth is, the more you know, the more questions you realize there are to be answered. Science and religion both strive toward those answers in their own ways, just as one might view all religions as different ways of acknowledging that infinite creative force that we feel must exist.

Personally, I do believe that an ultimate creator (I hesitate to just call it God...it'd be like having a pet rabbit and naming it "Rabbit") designed everything, from what an atom is to the laws of physics and energy to the awe-inspiring interplay between mathematics and nature which can be observed everywhere. It seems impossible to me that such an incredible and mind-numbingly vast system, with such exquisite simplicity and such magnificent complexity, could not be the work of a higher being. I was raised Catholic, but have since left behind the trappings of the organized religion in favour of adapting my own system of spiritual beliefs.

I believe it's after 3:30 in the morning here, and that I'll go to bed. :P
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Old 04-22-2007, 10:42 PM   #70
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Default New hinge personal record

here it is
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:58 AM   #71
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I've been thinking about the stuff you guys have been talking about all day (I read it all last night), and I really am having a hard time choosing what to believe.
This may be a very good or very stupid question, but here it is: If every organism on earth evolved, why is every organism symmetrical? Is it just chance that EVERY SINGLE living organism on Earth is symmetrical? Why did ALL animals evolve to have TWO eyes? why not 1? why not 3? If humans walked on 4 legs before we evolved to bipeds, why did we not stay like that? When things evolve, they do so for a purpose, right? Four legs sure seem more steady to me than two (I thought of a counter for this argument: maybe we evolved so that we could reach fruit in trees, just as giraffes evolved a long neck to eat from the trees as well.). But back to my original question. You would think at least ONE organism would have evolved some imperfection. Animals' internal composition is not symmetrical, why is the exterior? Wouldn't it be the simplest path for evolution to take just mould the exterior of the body to fit the interior?
88.2% of humans use their right hand for nearly everything they do. If it is this arm that lifts things 88.2% of the time, why hasn't the right arm developed a thicker bone than the left arm? Why doesn't more muscle grow naturally on the right arm than on the left in the womb? It has been proven that animals also have limb dominance, and that this limb dominance is not by choice, but a phenomenon of the brain.
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:03 AM   #72
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Quote:
If every organism on earth evolved, why is every organism symmetrical? Is it just chance that EVERY SINGLE living organism on Earth is symmetrical? Why did ALL animals evolve to have TWO eyes? why not 1? why not 3?
Not all animals have only two eyes, but two eyes may be the optimal number of eyes to have. Two eyes provide depth perception -- something that one eye will not allow. As an experiment you can do, try throwing a paper ball into a trash can at a distance with one eye open. Then try doing it with two eyes. You'll notice that it is difficult to estimate how far you have to throw the ball.

The more eyes an organism has, the more energy it will need to consume to maintain its eyes. This goes with all organs in an organism. This is why you don't see an organism with ten hearts, five lungs, seven stomachs, etc. all at once. An organism may however develop certain organs, while simplifying others. This can be seen in a comparison between humans and cows. On one hand, humans have highly developed brains, but a relatively simple digestive system. On the other hand, cows have smaller brain sizes, but complex digestive systems (e.g. four "stomachs"). What I just talked about is called the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis.

As to answer your question about symmetry. I have less to say because I do not know much about it (I'm not a biological sciences major). I would imagine it is because it provides balance throughout the organism. Major organs, such as the central nervous system and the brain, can be located exactly along the middle of the organism. This will minimize any time difference between nerve responses of the left and right sides of the organism.

Quote:
If humans walked on 4 legs before we evolved to bipeds, why did we not stay like that? When things evolve, they do so for a purpose, right? Four legs sure seem more steady to me than two (I thought of a counter for this argument: maybe we evolved so that we could reach fruit in trees, just as giraffes evolved a long neck to eat from the trees as well.).
It is true that ancestral humans were once quadrupedal. According to one theory, these humans lived at a time when trees covered most of the land. Then a significant climate change occurred. This changed caused large open grasslands to appear. To adapt to the grasslands, these humans evolved to bipeds. Bipedalism allowed for easier travel on the open grasslands.

Quote:
But back to my original question. You would think at least ONE organism would have evolved some imperfection. Animals' internal composition is not symmetrical, why is the exterior? Wouldn't it be the simplest path for evolution to take just mould the exterior of the body to fit the interior?
But they are close to symmetrical. Take a look at the human body. The brain lies on the center axis of the body. Two lungs take up either side of the chest cavity. The heart lies in the middle. The kidneys are also on either side of the body. The liver is centered in the body. The intestines are coiled up but are also centered. The eyes and ears are set the same distance apart from the center symmetry axis. The nose and mouth lie on the axis. The spinal cord runs down the axis. The reproductive organs also reflect symmetry about the axis.

Quote:
88.2% of humans use their right hand for nearly everything they do. If it is this arm that lifts things 88.2% of the time, why hasn't the right arm developed a thicker bone than the left arm? Why doesn't more muscle grow naturally on the right arm than on the left in the womb? It has been proven that animals also have limb dominance, and that this limb dominance is not by choice, but a phenomenon of the brain.
As for limb dominance, I have no information about it. Perhaps someone else can enlighten you.

As a side note: Hypothesis is a set of predictions made from observations of some natural phenomena. It becomes a theory when the hypothesis is not disproven through repeatable relevant experiments. Once the theory can be shown to be 100% true no matter what the conditions are, then it becomes a law. As an example, consider this: You are standing in a meadow. You see one white sheep grazing. You can make a hypothesis stating that all sheep are white, based on this observation. Then you test your hypothesis by looking for more sheep and recording down their color. If all of the sheep you've seen are white, you could say that your hypothesis has not been disproven through repeatable experiments (looking at the color of sheep). Congratulations, your hypothesis is now a theory. Now unless you go around and observe every single sheep in the universe, you cannot know if your theory is true always. It is a theory, because there is a possibility that a black sheep is somewhere out there. But until you observe a black sheep, this theory is the best you have.
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:25 PM   #73
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Talk about the big bang is getting into physics, which I love. Unfortunately, there is too much to explain, so I'll try to give a brief idea. There is an "extended version" of the Big Bang called inflationary theory, which answers a lot of questions the original theory missed. Also, for anyone who has heard of string theory/M-theory, it also predicts how/why the Big Bang happened. By the way, for anyone who doesn't know yet, Cosmic Microwave Background proved the Big Bang.

Last edited by heyheyhey27; 04-24-2007 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 04-25-2007, 10:52 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanh84 View Post
just as giraffes evolved a long neck to eat from the trees as well.).
88.2% of humans use ton the left in the womb? It has been proven that animals also have limb dominance, and that this limb dominance is not by choice, but a phenomenon of the brain.
Giraffes didn't choose to grow a long neck it just happened one day and gave that particular giraffe an advantage over the others this is important to remember when thinking about evolution. As for the whole arm thing a wise man once said, and I qoute
"If the human brain were simple enough to be understood we wouldn't know a thing about it, because we wouldn't have the brainpower"
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:45 PM   #75
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Wow, shoulda joined these forums a long time ago...

Anyway, I just came to post this:


Does turning up the mouse sensitivity count as cheating XD

Anyway, the Child's pet Cobra thing scared the hell out of me XD
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SPRING: Is here INK general ramblings 2 03-20-2006 05:04 PM


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