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Old 04-15-2007, 02:08 PM   #26
R0yce
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Dutchdude, have you ever herd or a thing called death, disease etc..
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Old 04-15-2007, 05:55 PM   #27
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Okay the funny thing here is, even if the theory of evolution was just amazingly disproved by superior intelligent people *sarcasm*. What makes you Catholics so damn sure that you're religion is the right one that everyone else is going to hell? Have you taken time to actually look into how many other religions there are out there? A lot of them require people to pray or do things or celebrate certain holidays and also a lot state that if you worship false idols or false gods you're gonna end up in hell or some other bad place anyway. So, even if you believe the theory of evolution was just disproved with a jar of peanut butter, don't go singing your hallelujahs to everyone else.

Personally I'm an agnostic believer. There's so many religions and bullshit forced on people in the world I decided instead of following the rules that some book lays down to me and begging for forgiveness from a priest or other religious figure I'll live my life by my morals, decide what's right and wrong based on common sense and in the end find out when I die.
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Old 04-15-2007, 06:05 PM   #28
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The problem religion has, is that no one can prove with the slightest bit of evidence that god exists. The human mind is quite stupid & will seek the easiest answer to a problem - that's a non-arguable fact. Only when you let your own will power go into more depth will you start challenging it. if a cloud looked like a huge hand, some religious would probably be saying that god made it as a sign. What he doesn't know is that he passes MILLIONS of random things everyday that don't ressemble anything human, but this one time when it happens, it had to happen on purpose. It was bound to happen at some point.

Why are people put in mental institutes for believing it's okay to be a cannibal by people who believe a big floating guy sits on a cloud making people?

Also, to whoever said that "the human body is too complicated to have just been made by accident blah blah blah", why would a load of chemicals reactions that happen in the way they do be so hard to do?

Someone find me a SINGLE piece of solid evidence that this god guy exists & I'll give them my bank card & pin number. That's an actually challenge, so go ahead & send me a private message. I can then tear apart your theory, shit on it & laugh as I give it back.
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Old 04-16-2007, 01:31 AM   #29
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Look at the early forms of paintings, or even the renaissance paintings.
Well, you say you understand the concepts behind evolution, but with you saying things like this it makes it obvious that you know very little about the theory of evolution.

The renaissance began in the 1300s, so that is 700 years you have given humans to evolve, and seeing no evolution you say it disproves the theory. One of the most fundamental rules of evolution is the massive amount of time it takes for even the smallest changes to take place in lines of species.

Evolution took place over MILLIONS of years, not HUNDREDS. Regardless of which side you take you have to agree that we need to understand that the events taking place are in extents of time beyond most humans comprehension.

Your next point pretty much is saying that how did life come out of nothing.

Again this has everything to do with massive amounts of time and space beyond anything within human experience.

The scientific theory is that the exact right amounts of the exact right elements and componds happened to fall into the right places next to each other. Then, when given the right amount of energy, a primitive, simple, single-celled organism formed.

Impossible? In terms of the chances of this happening on what we see on earth today, yes. But think of it this way, there are billions of stars in the galaxy, and billions of galaxies in the universe.

Not all of them have planets with the right tempurature, etc. to support life, but when you are talking about somewhere near 3x10^12 stars the LEAST amount of these planets to logically exsist is somewhere near 999 trillion PROBABLY MORE.

Now, to explain this I'll go back to the golf analogy. But this time imagine the ball and hole is 10 times smaller than on a normal golf course, and the hole is not covered, again you blindfold yourself and hit in a random direction with random power. And it doesn't go in, obviously.

But if you say that the elements and compounds will never fall into the right places, then you are saying that the ball will never go in, even if you hit it 999 trillion times, since life COULD have formed on any of those planets, and it just happened to be earth.


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"If you don't support abortion then it shouldn't bother you that people are doing it."
You have a point here actually, I take back what I said in that part of my post.

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Secondly, how could a fish turn to a monkey then to a human?
It did, but very slowly. Think of it this way, if I made it so that you could live for 100 billion years, do you think you would look anything like you did today at the end of that? AND in this case, we are talking about different generations which gave the species even more ability to change.


Quote:
how could LIFE have started if three random meteors collided
You say again and again you are educated in science but the more I read the more it seems like you aren't. Where are these three meteors coming from? I've never heard of such a theory before and frankly, it sounds ridiculous. There is no way for anyone to know when the first organism formed, and the energy needed to form a single celled organism is about as much as is stored in the soda I'm drinking, not stored in three meteors.



Quote:
don’t take any of our arguing personally
I never take argueing personally, I might judge you from it if you seem foolish or immature, but so far you really don't seem either, but your points ARE full of holes.

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Animals were fossilized instantly by massive amounts of water that covered the whole earth (according to the biblical account). This is supported by finding whale fossils on top of mountains and trees fossilized upside-down.
This can also be explained by the PROVEN happening of tectonic plates shifting.


Lastly,
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Well as I said you seem like a really cool guy
thank you, but I'm just wondering, why am I any better than Robwasripped, who, you replyed to with saying
Quote:
Your an idiot.
after he expressed his opinions exactly as I did. Honestly, I am really wondering how much it has to do with my saying I was Christian...

Last edited by Coldin; 04-16-2007 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:42 AM   #30
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Is it true that "truth is what you believe it to be" or not? Answer carefully...
It is true. The real question is that if it is reality...
And it is all theory.
Remember truth and what is true only applies to the known not the past.
We can find out logically that we are different than our past. But the reality is that to believe in blind faith is a choice. As much as it is the people who read this and choose to believe ,to agree, to disagree. Remember even the great Napoleon Bonaparte acknowledged Christ... the God not the man... Jesus Christ was no man if you believe in the bible as your truth tell me that you accept the fact, then you'll see the reality of your Faith.

Last edited by TellusTruth; 04-16-2007 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 03:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by omar199 View Post
lol @ python....freakin awesome
Yea the little part at the end kinda stunned me for a sec. XD
Where can one find the actual news video scoop at? =P
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:00 PM   #32
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Oh noes! Don't forget the bananas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwbhAXe5yk
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:15 PM   #33
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thank you, but I'm just wondering, why am I any better than Robwasripped, who, you replied to with saying
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Your an idiot.
after he expressed his opinions exactly as I did. Honestly, I am really wondering how much it has to do with my saying I was Christian...
The same reason why you called me arrogant. I didn't mean it personally; just that he made a totally oblivious point and seemed relatively incompetent and totally unthought-of.
Now you are a very smart person and I am impressed by your skills.
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but your points ARE full of holes.
I will try to clean up here. But After this post I won't be fizzing anything. I don't want to seem too incompetent and arrogant and driven to prove something if you are able to disprove me.
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Where are these three meteors coming from?
The Big Bang. It is supposedly the most logic reason how the earth was created. Others say it was pushed from the sun..?
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It did, but very slowly. Think of it this way, if I made it so that you could live for 100 billion years, do you think you would look anything like you did today at the end of that? AND in this case, we are talking about different generations which gave the species even more ability to change.
Good point. But wasn't the earth only 6 billion years old and life less than half of that? Other than that that is a very good point.
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The renaissance began in the 1300s, so that is 700 years you have given humans to evolve, and seeing no evolution you say it disproves the theory. One of the most fundamental rules of evolution is the massive amount of time it takes for even the smallest changes to take place in lines of species.
Evolution took place over MILLIONS of years, not HUNDREDS. Regardless of which side you take you have to agree that we need to understand that the events taking place are in extents of time beyond most humansí comprehension.
Your right, but I also mentioned Egypt and Mesopotamia, and there artwork, although crude, still depicts humans which are similar to now.
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the scientific theory is that the exact right amounts of the exact right elements and compounds happened to fall into the right places next to each other. Then, when given the right amount of energy, a primitive, simple, single-celled organism formed.
As the peanut butter showed, how could this happen? Think of the case the peanut butter is in, that is our Ozone which protects us from light and energy. Then think about what our earth was when it was first created. The air was toxic, methane and other junk if I remember correctly, and acids which make life imposable to happen.
Quote:
Not all of them have planets with the right temperature, etc. to support life, but when you are talking about somewhere near 3x10^12 stars the LEAST amount of these planets to logically exist is somewhere near 999 trillion PROBABLY MORE.
If there are such odds that there can be another planet with other life, can that mean that aliens are real? Hmm... What are the odds that we are the planet that could support life? Awesome.
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This can also be explained by the PROVEN happening of tectonic plates shifting.
Hmm I never was exposed to how plate tectonics can do that. Can you expand on this? I am interested in learning. Thatís what this argument is mostly for, no? Learning opinions and stances of Evolution and Creationism?
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I never take arguing personally I might judge you from it if you seem foolish or immature, but so far you really don't seem either
Thank you. I try not to look immature at those who can or are better than me, and foolishness is only possible by those "who speak what they not know, and know what they not speak". And another famous quote that goes with that " "Do not pretend to be what you think to be, for you surely will be what you pretend to be"
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:57 PM   #34
Tensei
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Originally Posted by swiftx05 View Post
Oh noes! Don't forget the bananas!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwbhAXe5yk
.......ok this is why I don't heavily go on religion lol.
=====
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Originally Posted by Scotty View Post
Okay the funny thing here is, even if the theory of evolution was just amazingly disproved by superior intelligent people *sarcasm*. What makes you Catholics so damn sure that you're religion is the right one that everyone else is going to hell? Have you taken time to actually look into how many other religions there are out there? A lot of them require people to pray or do things or celebrate certain holidays and also a lot state that if you worship false idols or false gods you're gonna end up in hell or some other bad place anyway. So, even if you believe the theory of evolution was just disproved with a jar of peanut butter, don't go singing your hallelujahs to everyone else.
Personally I'm an agnostic believer. There's so many religions and bullshit forced on people in the world I decided instead of following the rules that some book lays down to me and begging for forgiveness from a priest or other religious figure I'll live my life by my morals, decide what's right and wrong based on common sense and in the end find out when I die.
Exactly what I was thinking as well. People have gotten so far into religion that they are blinded by thinking their religion is the "right" one, when infact religion never existed until humans came into evolution. It's all about a person's beliefs. You can hate me for thinking that, but that's what it is. You got people out there saying they received a message from , saying what they are gonna do is better. Well, if every person that said that had it happen, we're still in a crappy world. I don't mind a person having a belief in something, but don't push it as if it was a fact. It's even more absurd how they are viewing into how things are created, affected, etc, but I don't see any puting it out there in effect to make the world a better place honestly.

Last edited by Tensei; 04-16-2007 at 10:03 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-17-2007, 04:49 AM   #35
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enough posts with paragraphs thank you everyone..:)
my eyes are beginning to bleed
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:45 AM   #36
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yea i cant really be bothered to read the long words so i guess its sumit funny so i say lol
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Old 04-17-2007, 02:34 PM   #37
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I just want to make my point heard, even if none of you want to listen to it

during the first couple of years of secondary school, we were taught the whole 'created by god' in RE (Religious Education) but after that, RE became less of how the earth was made, and how different religions saw themselves on earth, and with other people.

in the final 3 years, science took up the whole evolution theory, though again, this wasnt stuffed down our throats. to be honest, i found all this more believable than it was god who created earth. i was brought up with a bit of each theory, yet i CHOSE to believe one of them at the time. I left school at the age of 16 with that belief firmly in my head, though i was very much aware of creationalistic view.

then, about 15 months ago, i met my (no ex) girlfriend. she wasnt religious, but she sang in a church choir (her mum was religious, said my girlfriend was the devil at some point lol makes me think religious is a joke when i hear stuff like that). because emma was always singing at church on sunday, and i wanted to spend as much time with her as poss, i started going to church. remember, b4 then, i had only been to church twice, and that was when i was less than 10 years old. i had always thort that religion kept preaching on about 'god made earth, simple as' yet in my year of going to church, twice a day, almost every sunday, i was amazed at how broad minded they were.

different religions have different beliefs. we all know that (look at extremists, and pacifists. both have beliefs, even if they are totally differen). you dont have to be religous to have a belief. you just need an imagination.

we've also all heard of 'mutating' cells, causing problems for the human body, like cancer. mutation of a cell is, quite simply, evolution.

accoring to certain religions, god only created two humans. adam, and eve. I just cant believe that adam and eve were the first people on our earth. if they had 2 kids, brother and sister, for the human race to carry on, the brother and sister would have to have kids, or a parent and child would have to have a kid. this leads to inbreds (im sorry, cant think of a better word). which, in itself, is a form of evolution. the thing is, scripture tells us adam and eve look identical to us. two arms, two legs, one head, no dissabilities (as most commonly seen with inbreds (sorry, im trying to use that word as minimal as possible)).

even if creationalism is true, evolution would have happend, even if it was through inbreds, survival of the fittest, or just plain fate.

People choose. Everyone makes a choice. as we grow, and learn more things, our choices become more soffisticated. some can call that evolution. others call it simply 'growing up'
everyone evolves in the lifetime. a child brought up in a rich family who has everthing is different from a child brought up in poor estates. it is down to their surroundings that decides who they become. the body adapts to its surroundings. someone who lives in the sahara desert, where body fat it not needed so they are very thin, goes to live in antartica, their body stores the fat to keep it warm. a few years of this new climate, u see that person adapting to their surroundings, and becoming fat. isnt evolution simply adapting to your suroundings?

i know i have explained myself poorly. you can rip this post to pieces if you want (which you probably will). it will be interesting to see what you make of it. or you can ignore it. i just want to make my points, no matter how poorly i explained them

Last edited by NSF12345; 04-17-2007 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 04-17-2007, 03:30 PM   #38
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This may sound wierd, but I believe both. And here's an interesting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman Also, find an image of ÷tzi's skeleton, and you will see how different he is from humans (even without the defilement to his body suffered when the discoverers thought he was a recent body.)

Last edited by heyheyhey27; 04-17-2007 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 04-17-2007, 05:57 PM   #39
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on death by hinge...


CROSS MY HEART AND HOPE TO DIE. THIS IS NOT A LIE.

ok, to clear up any non-believers, i'll tell you the hit.

start like this:
EDIT: sorry, please have your cursor all the way to the right boundaries of your screen.
then swivel the cursor like a whip to the left, then let go. this should make the hinge move at LIGHTENING SPEED. but of course i cant tell, it goes to fast to make sense, 1 second your in the normal place, then you in some weird place with no snow



with that hit i got a bad hit :D
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:00 AM   #40
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I can't read any of your arguments because they are all full of incredibly irritating grammatical errors. Half of your sentences aren't even full sentences; they have missing words and just plain don't make sense.

Good day to you, too.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:50 AM   #41
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enough fucking long posts.
make them one or two lines.
a paragraph at most!
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:41 AM   #42
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Default Peanut butter proof

That's got to be a Daily Show joke right? Damn, they're idiots.

Their teleological proof: Because we don't see any organisms arise from vacuum sealed, carbon-structured substances, life has to have originated from creationism.

Oh boy.
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Old 04-18-2007, 03:31 AM   #43
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yes.
and it does not take the energy of 3 meteors to create a single living cell.
think, how many cells does your body make when it grows?
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Old 04-18-2007, 05:49 AM   #44
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It is all irrelevant.
As long as: Christ was killed on the cross 2000+ years ago WITH witnesses ( roman and jewish) and then 3 days later, came back to life, as witnessed again by many many people, proven by the fact that the entire roman empire (the guys that were in charge of nailing him there in the first place...) was converted to Christianity after seeing a dead man walking around alive and well; then, there is nothing more to say.
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Old 04-18-2007, 07:18 AM   #45
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what the fuck are you talking about?
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Old 04-18-2007, 12:51 PM   #46
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enough fucking long posts.
make them one or two lines.
a paragraph at most!
Why?
Quote:
can't read any of your arguments because they are all full of incredibly irritating grammatical errors.
English isn't my first language, unless you all speak German or Italian or Danish, then we can work something out.

BV2, good point. we can leave it there.

Quote:
Their teleological proof: Because we don't see any organisms arise from vacuum sealed, carbon-structured substances, life has to have originated from creationism.
Put it in the persection of EARTH. they have a good Idea improvised in short LayMans turms.

Was this short enough?

Last edited by Frankoman; 04-18-2007 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Quote messup
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:59 PM   #47
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why is everybody talking so complicated
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Old 04-18-2007, 04:31 PM   #48
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Sorry for long posts, but I have to counter every point of the other sides arguement, that's just the way it works.

NSF12345, your head is in the right place, but you are confused about a couple of things.
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'mutating' cells, causing problems for the human body, like cancer. mutation of a cell is, quite simply, evolution.
Mutation in cells is not evolution, mutation is caused by DAMAGE to the DNA, not changing of it, which is why instead of it HELPING us survive it can kill us. In the case of cancer cells, when a cell is damaged, instead of shutting down like it's SUPPOSED to do, it starts dividing rapidly, which is what cancerous tumors are.
Quote:
everyone evolves in the lifetime. a child brought up in a rich family who has everthing is different from a child brought up in poor estates. it is down to their surroundings that decides who they become. the body adapts to its surroundings. someone who lives in the sahara desert, where body fat it not needed so they are very thin, goes to live in antartica, their body stores the fat to keep it warm. a few years of this new climate, u see that person adapting to their surroundings, and becoming fat. isnt evolution simply adapting to your suroundings?
No, you are confusing ADAPTATION with EVOLUTION, both are one of the five charecteristics of living organisms. Adaptation takes place in a single organism in the ways you describe, however adaption is limited to very small changes. Evolution takes place over many generations and usually is associated with very large changes.

BV2 that's totally off topic, as NSF12345 said, this doesn't have to do with an arguement between Christianity and Science, because as I said before I believe in Christianity but in this case I am argueing the scientific view just because to me it seems much more likely.

Now onto Franko's post:
Quote:
The Big Bang. It is supposedly the most logic reason how the earth was created.
Now this is just to much...you don't understand the Big Bang Theory?

The Big Bang Theory, has nothing to do with how the earth was created, it covers how the UNIVERSE and ALL matter in it was created, and there were NO meteors involved, because, before the Big Bang, there were no meteors, or any matter.

Earth WAS formed by leftover molten matter from the Sun that hardened to form our planet but life didn't form on earth until much later.

Mesopotamian Era started in 4000 BC, which is 6000 years, which evolution still needs more time for any major changes. Still it is argueable whether small changes should be noticeable IN MOST SPECIES. However, while it's possible for evolution to work that quickly under some, desprate circumstances, when a species is quickly dying due to new circumstances and has to change a limb, etc. HOWEVER, the Mesopotamian Era marked the arrise of literate cultures, which means it was a time of prosperity (If you are having problems surviving because you can't eat, etc. you aren't going to spend time to develop a language.). And even IF humans were having problems surviving and not been in a time of prosperity in which their bodies were suiting them fine, there is no telling whether or not evolution would have taken place in that short amount of time. Evolution arrises from nessecity, and during this time we were functioning better than ever. Usually, the only thing that will ever evolve something major, like a limb, in this amount of time, are things such as small bugs.

Quote:
If there are such odds that there can be another planet with other life, can that mean that aliens are real? Hmm... What are the odds that we are the planet that could support life?
"What are the odds that we are the planet that can support life?"
Well let me ask you this, are we the planet or are we the life? What I'm saying is that we could be on ANY of those are other planets, though we probably would have named it the same thing. We just happened to be on this one which is one of the ones that could support life.

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As the peanut butter showed, how could this happen?
Because PEANUT BUTTER does NOT contain the nessecary elements and compounds for life, and DEFINATELY not arranged in the correct ways.

For example, all of the amino acids in peanut butter are already bonded into proteins, which means, until they are broken down the only thing they can be is peanuts, which are dead and mixed into peices throughout the butter.

There are alot of things on earth that aren't in that peanut butter jar. Not to mention, there's really no way for the elements in the peanut butter jar to even GET CLOSE to being in the right places to forum an organism, because whether you know it or not, there already are organisms in your peanut butter. Small, single-celled microscopic beings are eating in the jar of even the cleanest peanut butter in the supermarket. So even if the elements got close enough for it to be a part of the jigsaw puzzle of what's nessecary to form life (though the chances of them doing that are, impossible, because the peanut butter is not moving) before the new organism forms, some of those single celled organisms would come and suck up the yummy fragment of primordial soup.

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Then think about what our earth was when it was first created. The air was toxic, methane and other junk if I remember correctly, and acids which make life imposable to happen.
WRONG, as you said yourself, life has only exsisted on Earth for half of earth's time in exsistance, LIFE WAS NOT DEALING WITH THE EARTH "WHEN IT WAS FIRST CREATED"

And yes, at the time when life first appeared, there were things such as methane and "other junk" that would be toxic to HUMANS, dunno were the acids are coming from. However, for a SINGLE CELLED ORGANISM that DOESN'T EVEN BREATHE this wouldn't be to much of a problem. When life first formed the atmosphere was mostly CARBON DIOXIDE, there was no oxygen, a proven scientific fact. So why do we have oxygen today? Well, the scientific theory on it is the millions of photosynthesising organisms pumped oxygen into the atmosphere as a byproduct of photosynthesis. For those who believe the evolutionary theory, bet you never knew you evolved to survive on something that was created by another organism.

But if you believe in creationism, then tell me, how did the oxygen in our atmosphere come to be before we were created?
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Old 04-18-2007, 06:44 PM   #49
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Default I feel the need to interject here...

First post woo....


I was raised catholic and did all the god created earth stuff in RE and at home. I'm a physics minded person and studying cosmology and biology was great. It was only when i was about 16 when i was utterly shocked to find out that people took the stories of creaton LITERALLY!


I don't want to get into the miracle debate here, but people interpret things in a way they can understand at the time, which then becomes fact.


--For example, the parting of the seas.... a much more logical explanation is that the tide came in. things inevitably get distorted over time, the story of what happened may have been passed down through a number of generations before being written down.


--Another example, tongues of fire appear above their heads.... 13 men hiding in a small, hot room in a disease stricken time most likely with lack of food and water would probably have had fevers etc...


--Noah and the arc, scientifically impossible for him to have included two of every animal. It is concievable that he may have taken a number of species, but that would mean that all the others we have around today EVOLVED from the ones he saved. --- Also, the 'floods' given recent evants (tsunami/hurricane catrina) it is most likely that it was simply a natural disaster, not direct intervention.


life goes on every day without direct intervention from god, he works in mysterious ways incomprehendable to humans (if that is what you believe)
If that is the case, god created earth, he created matter, he chose how mater would interact with itself, he created the laws of physics.


Ae we saying god couldn't create a universe where life could exist wihout him intervening.


religion is basing a book of stories, which were based on second, fourth, sixth hand versions of events written by men about events which may or may not have happened. Not just the christianity, but all religions. People may say god spoke to them and so is the word of god. Well in that case. God spoke to me a few mins ago and told me to go get a biscuit, so i did. Nobody can argue that, that is any less significant than someone hearing something 2000 years ago.


I think if god created the universe, he created it in all its imense complexity, with big bangs, evolution and all. One in which life could originate and thrive, without any intervention.


I suppose i am an atheist now, but i believe in facts. There may be a god, there may not, i would like to think there is.


I'm not terribly good at putting what i believe into a coherent format but i hope you understand what i mean. my grammar is also better when i'm not falling asleep at 1am.


Last edited by craddster; 04-18-2007 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:34 PM   #50
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Yes, understandable, but as I said before this isn't really about believing in god or not, this is about believing in CREATIONISM. Most of your post was saying Science vs. Religion, which is what this is not. Interesting post, but it really is doesn't pertain to our arguement.
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People may say god spoke to them and so is the word of god. Well in that case. God spoke to me a few mins ago and told me to go get a biscuit, so i did
I find this view particularly interesting, and is why I don't believe or follow the Bible word-for-word
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