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debating big whoop, wanna fight about it? (just kidding, keep discussions peaceful)

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Old 11-26-2007, 07:26 AM   #1
gussa
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That's what EVERYONE from ANY sort of viewpoint of life at all does! Not just "organized religions".
so your view is that in life youre gonna be fad shit so you may aswell be fed old shit.
i mean sure no matter where when or how you live, people will probably tell you how to live. (ironically)
but just because you choose something that someone endorses, doesnt mean you chose it because thay endorse it.
ill give an example.
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ck, i used to be downright anti "ipod". i would actually insult people carrying ipods. this is because at that stage, they were something like 500+ dollars for more space than you could ever hope to fill with songs and you could easily get a similar functioning item for less. they cost 500 dollars because they were ipods. they were a status symbol and i hated them but im dragging on.


now today, i own an ipod. this isnt me being hypocritical in any way. ipod have adapted as the market changed. my ipod not only plays music but also movies, shows photos and notes. and even holds contacts and sets alarms.

i dont consider this a hypocritic turn around and defacement of morals at all. i bought it because it was the best on the market.

so anyway. i apply this to my stance on anything. just because im an atheist, doesnt mean i am completely anti religion. i support alot of things that christianity supports. but just dont consider myself cristion because i also disagree with alot of things about christianity.


NOTE: napalm, instead of deleting this for its un-debatability, could you please just move it somewhere...
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Old 11-26-2007, 07:43 AM   #2
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so your view is that in life youre gonna be fad shit so you may aswell be fed old shit.
That's not what I mean at all... I don't chose Christianity because it's old, or because I'm told that if I'm a Christian I will escape Hell... Believe me... I pretty much tried on just about every religion out there in 2006. I'm not even kidding.
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so anyway. i apply this to my stance on anything. just because im an atheist, doesnt mean i am completely anti religion. i support alot of things that christianity supports. but just dont consider myself cristion because i also
Before we even go any deeper into this topic, I first want to know what your understanding of Christianity is, and why you don't agree with it.
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:24 PM   #3
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NOTE: napalm, instead of deleting this for its un-debatability, could you please just move it somewhere...
Guss, you must have realized by now, there is NOTHING un-debatable.

But I have a question, NC, why did you choose Christianity?
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:46 PM   #4
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Guss, you must have realized by now, there is NOTHING un-debatable.
But I have a question, NC, why did you choose Christianity?
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:55 PM   #5
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Guss, you must have realized by now, there is NOTHING un-debatable.
lolz
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But I have a question, NC, why did you choose Christianity?
It makes the most sense to me... if you really take the time to cut the crap and find out the actual context of passages (or at least try) that have for hundreds of years been interpreted (well, actually weren't interpreted at all) wrongly and caused so much suffering for so many years, you'll realize that it was the people, not the book, that really did anything of harm.

I'm not going to abandon my entire faith simply because it has a bad reputation, or because it's packed with ignorant/self-righteous/crazy/bigoted etc. people in its minority, or even because the very start of my faith was at the aid of my parents. That's absolutely ludicrous. This isn't a clique... it's a life and death decision and shouldn't be based on how people perceive you. No matter what anyone does there will always be people out there who would be more than happy to spit on their grave, so what's the point? I still have hope for Christianity that someday a more real understanding of it's passages will spread throughout the masses... It's a lot more likely now because of our newer forms of communication... Besides, there are just as many and more truly good-intentioned, gentle-hearted, loving and caring people in the Christian body than there are bad. People just like to point out the flaws they find in us as people... As if being a Christian means that you're supposed to be perfect, and that if you aren't perfect you fail as a Christian... Which is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I just wish people would stop being to stupid in assuming that just because the words "blood", "death" and "fire" are used in a sentence that you shouldn't even think twice about what it's really saying.

When people try to use "Fear of God" against a Christian... your average response will be admitting that yes they are in fact afraid of God... but that it is a good thing because if you're not afraid then you won't respect Him and obey His commands... but that their fear of Him is out of love.

That's bull... sorry. If you truly love someone you're not doing what they ask of you because you're afraid they'll hit you. Just like it not loving of a Father to teach for their children only to be afraid of him, and never really connect to them on a personal level... cause they were too busy giving out threats. You're just not meant to take that kind of abuse. Not forever. Which is essentially how people SEE God... as an egotistical, melodramatic, abusive pathetic excuse for a Father.... and that's just not what that phrase even means. Perhaps the lot of them do that as a coping method to feel better about their biological fathers....

A good example is in Jeremiah 5:22... "'Should you not fear me?' declares the Lord. 'Should you not tremble in my presence?'"

Now, firstly... how would you interpret that just flatly reading it word-for-word?

Being that God's reputation is the way it is... nearly EVERYONE will automatically assume that Gos is just rampantly yelling and running around like a crazy fanatic expressing His anger and telling everyone to be scared of Him.

Um... okay......

Yet does it ever once occur to anyone to actually look up the original Hebrew passage? And then care to look up the word in place of "fear"?

From what I've heard and... seldom researched, being that up to very recently I actually thought everybody except Atheists had an understanding of this, but apparently the word for fear in Semitic text is actually a word which describes loving and zealous feelings. Being in absolute awe and aspiration to know and be like God.... not to pallor fright in His presence. Either the best word the earliest translators could have come up with to even compare to whatever that word was... was "fear", or some evil sick mind thought it would be clever to put the word "fear there because he knew that it would control the minds of individuals looking to achieve salvation.

Either way... it sucks, and I think it should be changed.

When I read God ask those people 'Should you not fear me?' declares the Lord. 'Should you not tremble in my presence?'... to me it looks more like He's extremely despaired that no matter how much He loves them, there will still be so many people who hate and reject Him. Honestly... I'd be pretty depressed too. As for "tremble in my presence"... well, obviously picking up from the loving aspect, God means that in no way what our perverted minds could come up with. It's trembling in adoration. Nothing more really... It's like when you've been separated from someone you're in love with for a really long time, and then once you're finally reunited in the flesh... you can't even contain Himself. That's how God feels about us... you know.... times infinity..... but we as humans can't really comprehend a love like that. I personally can't either. In essence He was actually saying "WHY don't you people love me! Don't you see how much I love you??? I don't want anything at all from you other than that you LOVE me! Look at all of this beauty I've made for you! I made it for the sole purpose of making you happy! Why don't you appreciate me? There's no other way for me to communicate with you unless you acknowledge me... and I want more than anything to just talk to you, please! Only if you chose you believe in me can you ever truly feel that I'm here... I'm right HERE!!!" If you read all the way to verse 25 you'll know why I added in all of that extra stuff.

There actually is very little He can do about what happens in the world... unlike popular belief. God has no dominion over this world.... and neither does Satan. It's us who decide what does and doesn't happen... it's us who allow what God can and cannot do in our lives... as well as Satan. Whether or not you acknowledge their existence. I'm pretty sure the reasoning for that is because God gave us dominion over the Earth... but then we cut Him off after releasing evil and darkness into the world, so now we have dominion, but don't how to use it. There are two things God absolutely cannot be in the presence of... and that is evil, and darkness. There are also absolutely two things that God is unable to do, and that is lie, and go back on His word. He can, however... destroy evil, and drown out darkness with light, and He can call out, disprove and deny the lies of others, and He can improve on what He's already set into place... I think.

God spends your entire life trying every way He possibly can to get you to accept Him blahblahblah.... and at the very same time Satan spends his entire life trying every possible way to either turn you against Him, or make your life as horrible as possible if you actually have the nerve to acknowledge He exists... and then to even love Him for it.

If this all sounds like rubbish to you... I honestly do not care.

Existence itself is built on balance. If there is no good, there is no evil. If there is no God, there is no Devil. God is the very core of everything that is pure, loving, and passionate about everything and everyone. I personally don't know if God has the ability to hate... I'd have to look into it though.

Satan is the very core of absolutely everything that is perverse, twisted, painful, horrific, just, basically... think of anything good, and then picture its exact opposite.

~~~

But um, yeah... the point of all of this is really up to a few questions that I find myself asking every now and again, and that is this:

If there really isn't a God... if there really is nothing but just this, and all of us really are just piles of bacteria that resulted in some freak accident billions (*trillions?) of years ago, does that make the suffering people have endured all of these centuries since the world came to be any more worth it? Does that make any of it seem any less wrong? Does that explain the mammal's need for a mother and father figure in their lives... and why they love them so much? Does it even explain love? Or hate? Or attraction of any kind...? Does it explain why there are so many different species with so many different requirements for living that one can't even count? Does it even explain anything at all...?

If the answer, in my gut, is no... then I'll not think more of it. Not because I'm afraid, but because I don't care. Just like you Atheists here wouldn't care to think more of it say you ever stumble across any questions like these in you minds. At least I assume that to be true... I could be wrong.

If I ever feel that I'm leaning towards yes (which I don't know if I have), then I might look into it.

Last edited by Nicky; 11-26-2007 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:19 PM   #6
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Holy shit. That post was nothing short of epic. At least in length.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:31 PM   #7
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I was in a different zone when I wrote it... O_o I barely remember typing any of it.
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:21 AM   #8
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That was loooooooong. Wanna gimme a short summarized version?
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:23 AM   #9
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I just finished it, and it was rather interesting. You share many of my views as far as religion goes Nicky.

Honestly the way I see fearing god is that, he wants you to do what he wants, and if you are going to do that because it's right, and because you know He wants you to, thats fine, and if you are going to do it because you are scared of him, thats fine to. I see that as an option.

I also see things in the way, that God has very little control over this world (in my opinion, by choice) and it is up for man to decide what happens to this world.

As far as Satan goes, I'm somewhat unsure of my belief that he exists...

And in regards to your last passage, do you believe in intelligent design?
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:31 AM   #10
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Honestly the way I see fearing god is that, he wants you to do what he wants, and if you are going to do that because it's right, and because you know He wants you to, thats fine, and if you are going to do it because you are scared of him, thats fine to. I see that as an option.
Fear is never a good enough motive to do anything as far as I see it... even st. Not the point though. I just think that if your heart isn't in the right place... that you won't get anything out of it. You can't have a personal connection with someone who you fear more than anything in the world.
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I also see things in the way, that God has very little control over this world (in my opinion, by choice) and it is up for man to decide what happens to this world.
That's what I think also...
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As far as Satan goes, I'm somewhat unsure of my belief that he exists...
Wouldn't that be a little confusing...? Not an insult. I'm just asking. :P
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And in regards to your last passage, do you believe in intelligent design?
Yes I do, but that doesn't mean that I don't equate science into it either. If God created all things than He invented science too. All we're doing is acknowledging what's already there.

Why do people automatically assume that just because there's a scientific explanation now that it means God couldn't have possibly had anything at all to do with it? That's the most juvenile thing I've ever heard.

Is it not at all a possibility that maybe God is more than just a big fairy in the sky (as some atheistic youtube commenter put it... probably 13-years-old and angry that the world isn't like the HP books), or that because there's no hocus pocus fairy dust in the world that it automatically just wipes out the idea of God's existence.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:37 AM   #11
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Bah! I'm so glad im not religous.
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:26 PM   #12
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Well the way I see it, everything evolved, the way god meant it to. What bothers me is the way so many people try to hold onto the idea of intelligent design when there is so much evidence against it. If their faith is so weak to be shaken up by admitting that we didn't pop out of nothing, then they need to re-think their religion.
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:38 PM   #13
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Bah! I'm so glad im not religous.
We are all religious.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:29 PM   #14
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And to understand why I don't believe in Satan, you must understand my views on god.

I don't really see god as being "good", he is definitely not "bad" either. I see god as a Will, something that decided that things would be the way that they were. What god actually IS I don't know, whatever view you take, gods actual being is always unknown, because we can never know how he came into being, or if he was always there.

To me, that will is unarguable, unfightable, it is absolute, because if it was not, if there was a power, not even to match it, but to get close to it, then there must be a medium in which this power exists, which means something besides the power would have to create this medium. Nothing can exist unless it has something to exist IN, otherwise relatively, it is nothing different from anything else, and doesn't exist.

What I'm saying, is that, god in my opinion, not only created existence, but in many ways IS existence itself. If Satan existed contrary to that will at any time, it would prove the Will to not be absolute.

This is all getting philosophical, and I hope you can follow this, I'm trying to word it so it's easier to understand.

If god isn't existence, then he must exist in something, so how was what HE exists in created? And if he IS existence itself, then he should decide what Satan does and if he exists or not.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:45 PM   #15
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We are all religious.
Agnostic ftw!!!!1
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:55 PM   #16
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Yes I do, but that doesn't mean that I don't equate science into it either. If God created all things than He invented science too. All we're doing is acknowledging what's already there.
Why do people automatically assume that just because there's a scientific explanation now that it means God couldn't have possibly had anything at all to do with it? That's the most juvenile thing I've ever heard.
Is it not at all a possibility that maybe God is more than just a big fairy in the sky (as some atheistic youtube commenter put it... probably 13-years-old and angry that the world isn't like the HP books), or that because there's no hocus pocus fairy dust in the world that it automatically just wipes out the idea of God's existence.
Its called Deism. There is another religion very similar to Deism, minus the parts about how God planned everything to be perfect. I forget what its called though. Which, by the way, is the religion I am most inclined to follow. Though I am not religious, so I would appreciate if you would stop saying stupid things like "everyone is religious." Its just not true.
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:23 AM   #17
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We are all religious.
Being religious is vaguely defined as acting in accordance with a set of rules thought to be held in regard by some higher power. I live for myself and for what I think is right, separate from religious indoctrinations. I am not religious (although the Christian Bible is a good book, and I read it a few years ago for its valuable humanitarian message).

Religions are based on the ideas of man. Mankind is infamous for coming up with some thoroughly suck-ass ideas. I only know what I think; it gives me no solace trusting in other human beings when I know how many flawed thoughts I entertain on any given day.

I don't care that you think otherwise (I respect your views), but I don't think that, as an opinionated religious person, you have any real base to speak for all of us. Don't whip out the mad paragraphin' skills again, either.

So, you're a Christian because it explains what is, thus far, unexplainable with science. I come across questions about the types of things you highlighted on in your long post, and I accept that they're in the nature of living beings; I hope to one day possibly find out why they happen, beyond "God did it". I won't consider these kinds of heavy things that opaquely until I have lost my ability to love, to hate, to do all these things that are currently inexplicable. It's worthless to ponder an unexplainable, intangible occurrence when you can actually experience it through living.
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:25 AM   #18
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I don't think that, as an opinionated religious person, you have any real base to speak for all of us. Don't whip out the mad paragraphin' skills again, either.
While I'm not sure exactly what NC meant by that, I think you are taking it the wrong way. She wasn't trying to speak for anyone, this whole thread really is something spawned from a former thread, with the posts mostly dominated by Gussa, Nicky, and I (with some by pink and others). And I believe she was just stating that those involved in the thread were mostly religious. If not, I don't quite how you can see that as "speaking for all of us" due to the fact the statement was more idealogical than literal. And, besides that there is NO reason to be offended at being called religious, for even if you find the idea of a deity silly, it is almost adolescent to feel insulted by it being said you might follow a religion (and don't say you don't feel insulted, you too gabriel) due to the fact that religion is just the strong following of a belief, not even belief in a deity. That's why atheism IS considered a religion, it is strong belief and way of life of those who believe in no god.

We ARE all religious, unless you are undecided, because if you believe in no deity, you are atheist, which, is therefore, a religion.

Also, VERY FEW people are Christian, or any other religion, to explain events unexplainable by science. The MAIN function of any religion, is to give people guidance on how to live their lives, and on the tougher issues in life such as morality, and happiness.

I am religious, and I believe many things unexplainable by science, will eventually be explained by advances in science, or never explained at all.

As for the "mad paragraphing skillz", there is no rule against how long your posts can be, and I also have very long posts. Especially when discussing ideas as complex as religion, you must communicate a large amount of information to get a point across. If you don't like it, don't read it, but don't complain about it.

In conclusion, I'm sorry to say that your post is largely irrelevant, and besides stating your own beliefs,(which, while contributive, doesn't make up for you pointless disregard for the actual POINT of this debate) doesn't really contribute to this debate at all. Mostly, I just don't think you have read all the other posts adequately to understand what exactly we are talking about, and, much more importantly, why.

Last edited by Coldin; 11-28-2007 at 01:32 AM.
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:12 AM   #19
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While I'm not sure exactly what NC meant by that, I think you are taking it the wrong way. She wasn't trying to speak for anyone, this whole thread really is something spawned from a former thread, with the posts mostly dominated by Gussa, Nicky, and I (with some by pink and others). And I believe she was just stating that those involved in the thread were mostly religious. If not, I don't quite how you can see that as "speaking for all of us" due to the fact the statement was more idealogical than literal. And, besides that there is NO reason to be offended at being called religious, for even if you find the idea of a deity silly, it is almost adolescent to feel insulted by it being said you might follow a religion (and don't say you don't feel insulted, you too gabriel) due to the fact that religion is just the strong following of a belief, not even belief in a deity. That's why atheism IS considered a religion, it is strong belief and way of life of those who believe in no god.
We ARE all religious, unless you are undecided, because if you believe in no deity, you are atheist, which, is therefore, a religion.
Also, VERY FEW people are Christian, or any other religion, to explain events unexplainable by science. The MAIN function of any religion, is to give people guidance on how to live their lives, and on the tougher issues in life such as morality, and happiness.
I am religious, and I believe many things unexplainable by science, will eventually be explained by advances in science, or never explained at all.
As for the "mad paragraphing skillz", there is no rule against how long your posts can be, and I also have very long posts. Especially when discussing ideas as complex as religion, you must communicate a large amount of information to get a point across. If you don't like it, don't read it, but don't complain about it.
In conclusion, I'm sorry to say that your post is largely irrelevant, and besides stating your own beliefs,(which, while contributive, doesn't make up for you pointless disregard for the actual POINT of this debate) doesn't really contribute to this debate at all. Mostly, I just don't think you have read all the other posts adequately to understand what exactly we are talking about, and, much more importantly, why.
I wasn't offended by her comment, I'm Agnostic, I read almost nothing in this thread; I wanted to be a cool guy and state my opinion. You wrote an analytical dissertation on my tiny little pap smear of a post.

I wanna continue with this fun, but it's three in the morning I'm ripped, so in summation: why does it even matter. Next time I post in a religious discussion thread, disregard it. It's just an opinion, and usually not any type of argument whatsoever. Leave it be.

fyi I have no problem at all with long posts as long as they're cohesive. I only said something about Nicky's because, surprise, I didn't want her to go crazy about the logical fallacies/incongruencies/technical weaknesses of my shitty post.
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Old 11-28-2007, 07:31 AM   #20
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... TOO MANY RANTS!

btw, GUSSA! Hullo??? I'm still curious as to what your views on Christianity are. :P

Last edited by Nicky; 11-28-2007 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:22 AM   #21
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im not sure...
i just dont see why i should have to live by someone elses rules.
if god wanted us to follow rules, he wouldve made us puppets.
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:40 PM   #22
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I agree vehemently with gussa on this point. Laws work against themselves, in that they can only be broken if they exist. Outlaws exist because laws exist. Nobody would ever be a criminal if no laws existed. It makes much more sense to me than any religion.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:24 PM   #23
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Well... shows how much you know. :P
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:16 PM   #24
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Shows how much you think I think you thought I know. ;P
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:27 PM   #25
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... right.
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