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Old 05-19-2007, 10:49 AM   #1
Natus Lumen
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Default Time and Space and The Universe

Discuss traveling through time and space. I just bought a copy of The Universe In A Nutshell by Stephen Hawking (sounds kind of lame, but whatever), and I've looked through it but haven't read much yet, as I still have to finish Dorian Gray.

Here, discuss things about the state of our universe and stuff like that and theories to traveling through it.
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Old 05-19-2007, 11:31 PM   #2
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if you were to travel through time, the universe would implode....
because matter can neither be created nor destroyed, traveling in time would mean you would be taking matter from your time (matter = you) into another time and universe where there is already that exact amount of matter.
meaning that now, one universe has not enough matter, and the other has too much. causing implosion of both universes (i don't know why. its just happens).


also there is the old old old theory that whatever you do in the past affects the future (I'm sure you've all seen enough movies to know what that entails)

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Old 05-20-2007, 09:25 AM   #3
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Time travel doesn't make a lot of sense to me. For example, if you were to travel back in time to change something in the future, then you wouldn't need to do it in the future, because you've already changed the past. This is a paradoxical situation; also, if one went into the past, a time paradox would be created by having two of the same person on the same time plane.
Traveling into the future, however, is entirely possible. I'm doing that right now, typing this post!
@gussa: Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:12 AM   #4
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It's hard to imagine being able to travel to the past. Time continually sweeps people forward through it (concept- aliens that travel BACKWARDS through time). It would be like swimming upstream. You would need to "climb out of the water," so to speak, and get back in further upstream. Does anyone else understand my metaphor?
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:08 PM   #5
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Time is an illusion created by the human mind. Everything happens simultaneously(poor spellin, yes it is), from the creation to the destruction of the universe. It's just impossible to comprehend. Did I just contradict myself? I am now confused. So says Yoda.
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Old 05-22-2007, 06:05 AM   #6
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Yeah, you did contradict yourself.
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielwhist View Post
Time is an illusion created by the human mind. Everything happens simultaneously(poor spellin, yes it is), from the creation to the destruction of the universe. It's just impossible to comprehend. Did I just contradict myself? I am now confused. So says Yoda.
It's actually called the 4th dimension. Time/Space relation. And its no illusion.
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:20 AM   #8
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Welcome to the great discussion. It's hard to define time, being in time. It's similar to being in a maze and trying to determine what it looks like from above.
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Old 05-22-2007, 02:27 PM   #9
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I just watched Donnie Darko, and read some stuff on Wikipedia about time travel and paradoxes. My conclusion:
lol, wut?
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Old 05-22-2007, 05:30 PM   #10
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It is a topic that can fo' sho' lead one's mind in a circle. I like the concept of Merlin, living backwards in time. That's always fun to think about.

Now, Time/space relation. When you travel through space, you travel through time, but you don't have to be traveling through space to travel through time. However, the concept of wormholes is a sort of exception to this rule, as you travel through time and space in an unnatural way simulateously when you go through a wormhole. The hole is a tunnel through both time and space, and is basically a 'worldline' bent in just the right way. You enter in one end and exit out another end anywhere along the plain of space or time.

Of course, time travel from the future to the past is most likely never going to be possible, as there are no 'tourists' from the future walking about killing or saving random things for no apparent reason. Unless, that is, the future human race has developed a way to be undetectable when they travel back in time, entering, making adjustments, and leaving so quietly we don't notice them, but that's fairly doubtful. Maybe the future humans have found a way of calculating all the possible consequences of their adjustments, which is impossible, calculating that the Butterfly Effect (that's what it is right?), or 'Ripple effect' (one thing causes another causes another and causes another, etc.) is infinite and completely unrelated things happen as consequences for changing the past.

'Tis an interesting thought, so it is.
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:09 PM   #11
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Come to think of it there really would be no practical use for time travel in either direction. I mean it's too dangerous to go back in time (as the dude above me said) and who really wants to go straight to the future without experiencing or understanding what came before it?
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Old 05-23-2007, 08:50 AM   #12
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Conversely, if you went into the future without moving through space, you would likely not end up on earth, as earth is continually moving through time and space.
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Old 05-23-2007, 09:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu-Nacho View Post
I just watched Donnie Darko, and read some stuff on Wikipedia about time travel and paradoxes. My conclusion:
lol, wut?
I think in that movie he did time travel but as a result he created an unstable alternate universe which would collapse because of its instability.
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Old 05-23-2007, 05:01 PM   #14
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In Donnie Darko, the message was a lot more moral than it was about time and space travel. He killed Frank because he was angry, and Frank was the one who saved Donnie's life. Frank is sort of a figment of the universe (he exists in time but not space) so when Donnie killed Frank that meant that there was no one in the past to save him, so he went back in time and died, and all that he did between the two jet engine incidents was erased from time completely.
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Old 05-23-2007, 05:11 PM   #15
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No, Donnie traveled back in time to the day where the jet engine fell, and just decided to lay there at the end of the movie. He was in a predestination paradox, looping those 28 days for a while; this is shown when he's talking to the girl after and says, "I'm really glad the school flooded; we've never had this conversation before."
I suppose he was satisfied with how things turned out on the last run or something, so he decided to let his time pass and the engine crush him.
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Old 05-23-2007, 06:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu-Nacho View Post
@gussa: Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.
nor can matter.
its one of the fundamental laws of science. that and never eat eggs with swiss cheese
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Old 05-23-2007, 10:12 PM   #17
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And don't snack on Mentos after guzzling Diet Coke.
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Old 05-23-2007, 10:25 PM   #18
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i learned that the hard way...
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Old 05-24-2007, 02:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu-Nacho View Post
No, Donnie traveled back in time to the day where the jet engine fell, and just decided to lay there at the end of the movie. He was in a predestination paradox, looping those 28 days for a while; this is shown when he's talking to the girl after and says, "I'm really glad the school flooded; we've never had this conversation before."
I suppose he was satisfied with how things turned out on the last run or something, so he decided to let his time pass and the engine crush him.
Hmmm...that reminds me quite heavily and undeniably of The Dark Tower series by Stephen King, and how it ends and such. I think that there are a number of things more than what you said, though. It makes sense that he was in a time loop, but I think the reason he got killed that time was because he got mad and killed Frank, and he wouldn't have killed Frank if he hadn't met the girl.

So I think that the girl had more significance to Donnie than is obvious, as I think she alters his fate using the Butterfly Effect, and additionally, the song at the end of the movie by Gary Jules was a direct representation of what happened to Donnie like when he sings about how the times when he dies are the best. But...I think when he said "I'm really glad the school flooded; we've never had this conversation before.", I think he actually says "I'm really glad the school flooded; we WOULD never had had this conversation." Maybe you are right. That movie is largely left open for speculation, and isn't easily explained.
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:01 PM   #20
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I haven't read the Dark Tower series yet, so I can't really comment or relate to that part.
As for the movie, there is certainly a lot to discuss and debate over. And, I checked the movie script; you're right. He says, "We never would have had this conversation." But I still feel that he was looping that period over, doing different things. It would/could help explain the start of the movie too where Donnie is in the forest or whatever.
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:02 PM   #21
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I don't think Donnie conciously knows that he is caught in a time loop, or whatever you want to call it. I think that is why he see's Frank, because subconciously he may know it, but he can't conciously understand it. At the end he final reaizes what is going on, and let himself die, freeing everyone else from the time loop, and also saving the girls life. I think that is the real reason he lets himself die, to save the girl. Also, there is the interesting thing with Gramma Death. Every day she goes out to the mail box, looking for Donnie's letter. Anyway, its a great movie, and very open ended. Love the scene where the child porn freak with all the motivational videos comes to Donnies school.

Last edited by gabrielwhist; 05-24-2007 at 07:03 PM. Reason: noticed a mispelled word
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Old 05-25-2007, 12:48 AM   #22
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time travel (into the past at least) simply is not possible.
dont even try
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Old 05-26-2007, 09:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu-Nacho View Post
I haven't read the Dark Tower series yet, so I can't really comment or relate to that part.
BIG SPOILER, IF YOU'RE PLANNING ON READING THE DARK TOWER SERIES!

The thing about the Dark Tower series is this: it starts with Roland Deschain of Gilead, the last gunslinger left in the world, chasing a wizard through a desert. We don't know how Roland got there. Now, we do know that all of Roland's life he was destined to go to the Dark Tower. It's what he was trained to think, growing up as a gunslinger. He travels all over, meets people from different worlds, and has many different adventures, all the while completely obsessed with the thought of getting to the top room of the Dark Tower. It is his life's ambition to get to that room. There are many sub plots, too. At the end of the series, at the end of book 7, all the characters that help Roland on his quest go back to their world and live happily, and it is here that Stephen King offers to let the reader stop reading the book without knowing what happened to Roland and the Dark Tower. Now, at the end of the book, Roland does indeed get to the Dark Tower. He kills his enemy, The Crimson King, who is guarding the Tower, and enters, reciting the names of those he honored and lost by the name of the Dark Tower. As he ascends the Dark Tower to the top, one artifact from every year of his life is there in one room on each floor (we find out that for all of time, Roland was meant to reach the Dark Tower, and it has been waiting for him all of this time). He reaches the top, at the apex of all drama. At the top, he sees his fate ahead of him. S.K. does not tell us what it is yet. He realizes all this time what was ahead of him, and he cannot stop himself (the hand of destiny pushes him unstoppably forward) and he moves forward...until finally, Roland wakes up in the desert where the story began. All his memories of what has happened, with his reaching the Dark Tower, and all that happened between the desert and the Tower slowly fades from his memory, and all that he knows is what lies behind him before he wakes up in the desert. The story begins with the same lines that began it:

"The Man in Black fled across the desert, and The Gunslinger followed..."
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:30 PM   #24
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Sorry Neverender, but I do plan on reading it, so that post is kinda wasted on me.
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Old 05-27-2007, 01:56 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gussa View Post
nor can matter.
its one of the fundamental laws of science. that and never eat eggs with swiss cheese
You must be joking. Matter can easily be created, and destroyed. They do it in physics labs in Switzerland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gussa View Post
time travel (into the past at least) simply is not possible.
dont even try
What is with you and these strange axioms. You have stated no reasoning. The 4th dimention starts over into a one-dimentional format, with all lines headed in one direction. So why cant you go backwards?

Last edited by MrNaPaLm32; 05-27-2007 at 01:58 AM.
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