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Old 11-27-2007, 09:32 PM   #26
Frank
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But Jesus came to get rid of those laws, so we don't have to follow them anymore and they aren't mentioned in the New Testament.
Jesus didn't come to get rid of the laws, he came to fulfill the law. What you read about in the old testament about clean and unclean animals, is only a picture of cleanliness and uncleanliness, and those laws only applied to the jews as well. The laws of sacrificing animals as well, were not gotten rid of but fulfilled when Jesus Christ died on the Cross as the perfect holy lamb of God. The Laws are not what make us perfect, they are to show us that we are not perfect, and that we need Christ to take our place. And, by the way, any sin in God's eye is the same. Its humans who place different value on certain sins.
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:34 PM   #27
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O_O... I love you.

not in a stalker sense
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:46 PM   #28
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Was that to me or SenTheDeathAngel ?
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:20 PM   #29
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Sen, your post is to vague and comes to no conclusion at all.

Frank, I'm sorry to say, I feel as if I'm having the bible read to me.....again.

Nicky, that tangent seemed kind of random, and I'm not sure if it had much to do with my last post.

First I'd like to say, Nicky, I(ME, maybe others have) have never accused you of being a brainwashed Christian, or being part of any of the shortcomings I mentioned about the church. I asked you questions trying to decide if you were, and I've decided you're not. I understand why you follow Christianity, and while I don't agree with all of your views on it, I respect the fact that you see it as having more to do with life and love than just getting a "ticket into heaven".

And in my opinion, nothing has changed before and after Jesus, except people, that really is the only thing in this world that can be changed.

Seven, I'm sorry to say, but I do not believe sex before marriage is a sin. Marriage to me is nothing more than a ceremony, love is what matters.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:01 AM   #30
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I know. That's kinda what makes my posts "rants." And for future reference, my post was "too" vague, not "to"
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Old 11-28-2007, 07:29 AM   #31
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Was that to me or SenTheDeathAngel ?
Um... you?
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:49 PM   #32
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This is an excerpt from a site I found in my research:

Q. What explicitly does the Bible teach about homosexuality?

This question I consider to be basic because, if we accept God's Word on the subject of homosexuality, we benefit from His adequate answer to this problem. I am concerned only with the Christian or biblical view of homosexuality. The Bible has much to say about sex sins in general.

First, there is adultery. Adultery in the natural sense is sexual intercourse of a married person with someone other than his or her own spouse. It is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments (Exodus 20:14; I Cor. 6:9, 10). Christ forbids dwelling upon the thoughts, the free play of one's imagination that leads to adultery (Matthew 5:28).

Second, there is fornication, the illicit sex acts of unmarried persons which is likewise forbidden (I Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; Ephesians 5:3).

Then there is homosexuality which likewise is condemned in Scripture. The Apostle Paul, writing by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declares that homosexuality "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9; 10). Now Paul does not single out the homosexual as a special offender. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. And then he adds the comment that some of the Christians at Corinth had been delivered from these very practices: "And such were some of you: But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11). All of the sins mentioned in this passage are condemned by God, but just as there was hope in Christ for the Corinthians, so is there hope for all of us.

Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.

In the Bible sodomy is a synonym for homosexuality. God spoke plainly on the matter when He said, "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel" (Deuteronomy 23:17). The whore and the sodomite are in the same category. A sodomite was not an inhabitant of Sodom nor a descendant of an inhabitant of Sodom, but a man who had given himself to homosexuality, the perverted and unnatural vice for which Sodom was known. Let us look at the passages in question:

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house around, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. (Genesis 19:4-8)

The Hebrew word for "know" in verse 5 is yada`, a sexual term. It is used frequently to denote sexual intercourse (Genesis 4:1, 17, 25; Matthew 1:24, 25). The message in the context of Genesis 19 is clear. Lot pled with the men to "do not so wickedly." Homosexuality is wickedness and must be recognized as such else there is no hope for the homosexual who is asking for help to be extricated from his perverted way of life.

Q. You said that sexual intercourse outside of marriage is condemned in the Bible. How do you explain marriage ceremonies in which two persons of the same sex are united by an officiating clergyman or justice of the peace?

There are cases on record where a marriage license was issued to persons of the same sex. I recall one such incident in Phoenix, Arizona. A marriage license was issued in the Maricopa County clerk's office to two men 39 and 21 years old respectively. The two men are reported to have "married" in a private ceremony.

However, to call a union of two persons of the same sex a "marriage" is a misnomer. In the Bible, marriage is a divinely ordered institution designed to form a permanent union between one man and one woman for one purpose (among others) of procreating or propagating the human race. That was God's order in the first of such unions (Genesis 1:27, 28; 2:24; Matthew 19:5). If, in His original creation of humans, God had created two persons of the same sex, there would not be a human race in existence today. The whole idea of two persons of the same sex marrying is absurd, unsound, ridiculously unreasonable, stupid. A clergyman might bless a homosexual marriage but God won't.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:25 PM   #33
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Here's an excerpt from a site I found in my research.

PASSAGE 2
GENESIS 19:1-14
THE STORY OF SODOM

Now let's consider the second biblical text used by some people to condemn God's gay children. You remember the ancient story of Sodom. First, what does the story of Sodom in Genesis 19 say about God?

When Gary and I arrive at a college or university to speak, there are often protesters carrying signs that read, "Mel White, Sodomite." (Has a nice ring to it.) Actually, I'm not from Sodom. That city was buried beneath the Dead Sea centuries ago. I'm from California -- but perhaps that just confirms their suspicions!

Once again, this story is not primarily about sex. It is primarily about God. Some people say the city of Sodom was destroyed because it was overrun by sexually obsessed homosexuals. In fact, the city of Sodom had been doomed to destruction long before. So what is this passage really about?

Jesus and five Old Testament prophets all speak of the sins that led to the destruction of Sodom -- and not one of them mentions homosexuality. Even Billy Graham doesn't mention homosexuality when he preaches on Sodom.

Listen to what Ezekiel 16:48-49 tell us: "This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God's eyes."

Today, heterosexuals and homosexuals alike do well to remember that we break God's heart when we spend all we earn on ourselves, when we forget the poor and hungry, when we refuse to do justice or show mercy, when we leave strangers at the gate.

I admit, there are a lot of gay folk who are Sodomites (and a lot of straight folk as well). Sodomites are rich and don't share what they have with the poor. Sodomites have plenty and want more. While millions are hungry, homeless, and sick, Sodomites rush to build bigger homes, buy bigger cars, and own more property -- putting their trust in safer stock portfolios and more secure retirement accounts.

Whatever teaching about sexuality you might get out of this passage, be sure to hear this central, primary truth about God as well. God has called us do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our Creator. Sodom was destroyed because its people didn't take God seriously about caring for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, or the outcast.

But what does the story of Sodom say about homosexual orientation as we understand it today? Nothing.

It was common for soldiers, thieves, and bullies to rape a fallen enemy, asserting their victory by dehumanizing and demeaning the vanquished. This act of raping an enemy is about power and revenge, not about homosexuality or homosexual orientation. And it is still happening.
Louima
Louima

In August 1997, Abner Louima, a young black immigrant from Haiti, was assaulted by several police officers after he was arrested in Brooklyn. Officer Charles Schwarz held Louima down in a restroom at the precinct, while Officer Justin Volpe rammed a broken stick into Louima's rectum. These two men and the three other officers involved in this incident and its cover-up were not gay. This was not a homosexual act. It was about power.

The sexual act that occurs in the story of Sodom is a gang rape -- and homosexuals oppose gang rape as much as anyone. That's why I believe the story of Sodom says a lot about God's will for each of us, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

... I would put more, but this article is so long and so meticulously detailed that you would really have to read the entire thing to get the full understanding.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:36 PM   #34
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o.o
wow a real debate..
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Old 12-01-2007, 09:33 PM   #35
Sen
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Uhh... Nicky, you didn't disprove anything I said. You just added other factors. That's like saying to the cops you couldn't have shot someone because there were 4 other people in the room, even though your fingerprints are all over the gun.

And even if you ignore the Lot/Sodom story, there is still no way for a homosexual relationship to be righteous according to the bible, as the bible states that there is to be no relations (sex) between unmarried people (I've actually had to do my own research for a project on the matter. I'll post a summary later), and also defines the structure of the marriage.

But you're right, there is no 1000 word discourse on why "man and man shall not lay." There is no 11th Commandment saying "thou shall not stick tool in other guys butt." But the evidence is there for anyone to read. And it is comprehensive and definite.

That said, humans were not put on this Earth to judge each other. The fact is, we're all living in sin. I recognize that my views and beliefs are my own, and I do not expect everyone to conform.To every man his own...
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Old 12-02-2007, 03:56 AM   #36
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I look forward to reading it.

Gosh I'm tired. I haven't stayed up 'till 4am in a while...

Last edited by Nicky; 12-02-2007 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:15 AM   #37
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I don't know the Bible well enough to comment on homosexuality in the Bible. However, I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality, or that if there is a God that he would have a problem with homosexuality.
See there you said it. You don't know the bible very well because if you did then you would see that God doesn't approve of queers and dikes.

Why do you think AIDS was invented? To eliminate all the homos and crackheads.
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:37 PM   #38
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See there you said it. You don't know the bible very well because if you did then you would see that God doesn't approve of queers and dikes.
Why do you think AIDS was invented? To eliminate all the homos and crackheads.
Sober, hetero couples can get AIDS.
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:59 PM   #39
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See there you said it. You don't know the bible very well because if you did then you would see that God doesn't approve of queers and dikes.
Why do you think AIDS was invented? To eliminate all the homos and crackheads.
Obviously you don't know the Bible very well either.

I would go on a rant... but you wouldn't read it anyway, probably too afraid that you would actually agree with me and have to end your homophobia.
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Old 12-02-2007, 02:35 PM   #40
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I'll venture to say that God doesn't hate anyone, and he doesn't disapprove of us so much as he disapproves of our actions. And in that light, a sin is a sin...
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Old 12-02-2007, 05:30 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Tashan Dorrsett View Post
See there you said it. You don't know the bible very well because if you did then you would see that God doesn't approve of queers and dikes.
Why do you think AIDS was invented? To eliminate all the homos and crackheads.
You should learn to accept yourself as you are. Its ok that you're gay. The sooner you come to terms with your sexuality the happier you will be. There is no need to mask it with cruelty and hatred.
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Old 12-02-2007, 11:36 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Tashan Dorrsett View Post
See there you said it. You don't know the bible very well because if you did then you would see that God doesn't approve of queers and dikes.
Why do you think AIDS was invented? To eliminate all the homos and crackheads.
you remind me of GWIA
and we all know how that turned out..

tell me sir. did you lose your viginity in primary school to the school slut?
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:09 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Tashan Dorrsett View Post
I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!I'm cool because I hate gays!
Why do you think AIDS was invented? To eliminate all the homos and crackheads.
Stop spamming.

Homosexuals make up less than 15% of the population? Something like that? HIV evolved to infect straight people, not gay people, otherwise the virus wouldn't have survived.

And Sen, now you aren't beating around the bush.

See, this is why I don't believe everything in the bible. We are told by the bible to love, to understand, to care, but not to tolerate. Up until recent times, people were taught to love, to understand, to care, but not to tolerate. Now, we have seen better and are now just beginning to understand tolerance.


This is the line I've personally heard the most about. "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" But to me it rings with oddity. First, the separate wording of "mankind" and "womankind", it seems, throughout the rest of the bible, womankind is supposively included with mankind, and only in this line, and a few around it is womankind referred to.
Now, is this to say that each is different? Therefore, all the other passages in which "mankind" is referred to it is only addressing males? Is the Bible also telling us the proper society is patriarchal?

Well, in the time the bible was written, people were, that's a fact. Not to mention the fact that, if this was the word of god, the way in which it refers to "womankind" seems as if they are almost an object, or possession, only worthy of addressing when speaking of sex or marriage. Also, thinking that goes along with men of that time. To me this passage doesn't sound like the voice of god, but the voice of a bygone age, and an outdated society.

Now, one more thing, the word "abomination" to my knowledge (this might be wrong actually, but either way the rest of this point still stands) isn't used too often in the Bible. Also, another thing about this word, is that, whatever definition it is used in, it is considered a very strong word. Not saying that this is a small offense, but a disgusting display, and a horrible act.

Now, there are three definitions of the word (only two are relevant to this).
1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
2. a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.: Spitting in public is an abomination.

Now most people will assume in this context the word takes the second definition, which makes sense. But regardless of this, what word can better describe homosexuality to a homophobic society? What word would be a better choice than this to convey their OWN opinion of homosexuality? Not to mention such a strong word, with such a negative context, almost to suggest that this is a thing which should not be forgiven (which goes against one of the major teachings of the Bible, which is forgiveness) would seem almost irresponsible for such a being as god to use. In relation to everything else he has taught, this seems deeply flawed, ringing more of emotion than of judgment or reason. Emotion in a trait of man, NOT a trait of god.

At least that's how I see it.
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Old 12-04-2007, 06:53 PM   #44
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Also, if you are a Christian, you have to realize that god didn't write the bible, multitudes of people over a huge spread of time wrote the bible, and they obviously didn't all chat with god. Also, assuming that whats in the bible is god's ideas, it was still written down by humans, and subject to human bias and personal opinion. So my conclusion is, anyone who thinks they know what god thinks is a fucking douche-bag.
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Old 12-04-2007, 10:20 PM   #45
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Oh geez... I might as well finally post the frickin' link...

http://www.pflagsanjose.org/advocacy...ebiblesays.pdf

After reading what's in this first link click on the one below this sentence and see and tell me what you think.

http://contenderministries.org/artic...osexuality.php

That article... basically made me see Christianity and the Bible in a nearly completely alternative light than I did five minutes prior to reading it. Simply going by the English translation, especially if it's only one English translation, (especialluy the KJV) and that alone... then you'll be just as lost as the majority of the many Christians, anti-Christians, ex-Christians, etc... out there.

It's really made me think... I have a wider conception of words and phrases, meanings and interpretations now. I mean, I did before still, more than most kids I know, but it's even bigger now after reading it. :P I mean, I dunno.... it just made so much sense to me.

Last edited by Nicky; 12-04-2007 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 12-04-2007, 11:07 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tashan Dorrsett View Post
See there you said it. You don't know the bible very well because if you did then you would see that God doesn't approve of queers and dikes.
Why do you think AIDS was invented? To eliminate all the homos and crackheads.
You will soon learn to avoid debates, as I did.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:54 PM   #47
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:23 PM   #48
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... there's no flame war here. O_o
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Old 12-06-2007, 09:31 PM   #49
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He's being proactive
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Old 12-08-2007, 01:01 PM   #50
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Wow, you guys sure can argue.

This is how I feel, about what this topic was intended to be about, and I'll make it short and simple.

If you're Christian, you believe that God made people. Right? Right.
Every gay person I know was born that way; it was not a choice.
I know this for a fact.
That would have to mean that God made them that way.
It's not a sin to be the way God made you.
It's just who you are, and it's something you can't change.

I cannot believe in God while believing that he would punish people for the way He made them.

The end. [:
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