turns out that i'm not as good as i thought i was at <a class="sho" href="http://gprime.net/game.php/deathbyhinge">death by hinge</a>. tom buff sent in a score of an incredible <a href="http://gprime.net/images/misc/dbh_score1.gif" class="img" />14,099 ft</a>. if you aren't impressed by that, try this on for size: kevin mckeon sent in a score of <a href="http://gprime.net/images/misc/dbh_score2.jpg" class="img" />805,944</a>. just wow.

he writes,
<div class="indent" /><i>"Actually, I have to admit, it was just a glitch in the game. But using the same glitch, I have gotten scores into the 899,000 range. All you really have to do is pull the hinge back so it's pointing at the top-left corner (a bit more to the left, than the top) and just as the man passes the center point of the hinge, (while continuing to hold the left mouse button) right click. The hinge will instantly snap into the horizontal position to the right, flinging the man farther than ever intended. It is so far, there are no sign-posts marking the distance, and you will see little or no snow during his flight. Other than using this glitch, the highest score I've managed to achieve is about 12,600."</i></div>
okay, so it wasn't totally legit. but impressive nonetheless. glad i never made any wagers ;-)

anywho, enough chatter. here's the meat:

this game is pretty unique. well, unique to <i>me</i> at least. turns out i'm an awful typer under pressure. how 'bout you?
<a class="sho" href="http://gprime.net/game.php/qwertywarriors">qwerty warriors</a> [ 0.7 mb ]

dhl delivers anywhere. anything.
<a class="wmv" href="http://gprime.net/video.php/wedeliver">we deliver</a> [ 1.3 mb ]

do <i>not</i> try this at home <i>(unless you have a massive escalator. in that case, go right ahead)</i>
<a class="wmv" href="http://gprime.net/video.php/escalatorskiing">escalator skiing</a> [ 2.8 mb ]

a child is born, and around the same time his parents get a pet python. they actually become friends <i>(heh heh heh)</i>
<a class="wmv" href="http://gprime.net/video.php/achildspetpython">a childs pet python</a> [ 0.6 mb ]

if you believe in creationism, then here you are. show off this proof to your friends. just don't forget your peanut butter.
<a class="wmv" href="http://gprime.net/video.php/proofofcreationism">proof of creationism</a> [ 5 mb ]

i have played the top game on another web site before but it didn't work but it works on gprime :)

and is that delivery one delivering a kiss? or am i wrong?

also my high score on death by hinge is 855212 but i used the cheat
my screen shot is off another time but its only a little but lower score

oh and i like that elevator movie lol


p.s sorry about the quality and the size of my screen it was too much memory for the forum

Nice update :D.

Good update, I suck at that hinge game though

I know you totally made this update just cuz it's my bday.

How can a jar of peanut butter that's been man-made & protected from all sorts of rays like UV rays by the glass be proof against hundreds of years worth of experiments & evidence? Some people are very stupid. Same thing with religion - how can people let their lives revolve around the fact that an afterlife exists despite there being no reason for that other than a book & other people to tell them it exists who got their info from the same book? Hey, did you know there's a giant chocolate factory that makes magical sweets & is run by someone called willy wonka? Oh it's true, I read it in a book...

Qwerty Warriors is the best game ever...

I've played it 3 times, once on easy and twice on Impossible. Here are my high scores, can any gprimers beat me?

Easy:
3. raw 81030 April 14, 2007

Impossible:
7. raw 16730 April 14, 2007

I also used the cheat. But I got 952397. http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n296/wetard13/hinge.jpg

Yeah...peanut butter totally represents a microcosm of Earth over trillions of years. Their point is totally valid. When will people learn not to use pseudoscience to try to prove faith? That defeats the purpose sigh.

That part of the update was really disappointing...but man that qwerty game rocks my socks.

Yeah...peanut butter totally represents a microcosm of Earth over trillions of years. Their point is totally valid. When will people learn not to use pseudoscience to try to prove faith? That defeats the purpose sigh.
That part of the update was really disappointing...but man that qwerty game rocks my socks.

It was meant to be a joke.

I'm pretty sure the video is real but it's completely absurd and everyone knows that.

i got about 26,000 in impossible

lol @ python....freakin awesome

EDIT: 53,350

my score on impossible mode is 16,000 :( bad score

I guess the people who made the peanut butter video failed science class miserably. People should know what the hell they're talking about before they go rambling about "proof."

yeh... (as most of you know i don't know a thing he said)

I guess the people who made the peanut butter video failed science class miserably. People should know what the hell they're talking about before they go rambling about "proof."
oh my personal favorite line, "life from no life without the bla bla bla religious god crap, is just a fairy tale"

um, ok, so an omnipotent being randomly creating a race of beings isn't a fairy tale ?

please, if there was a god, why are there people like that still alive, why are there people in control of large militaries that are complete and utter morons, evolution as a whole has stopped since it's frowned upon by religion to go kill off the weak and stupid.

my score on impossible is 53,230

GREAT! update. I loved the creationism thing, for thats what I've talked about, just not with peanut butter. If any of you Atheists out there are pissed because someone just prooved you wrong and can't believe it, look at how I trashed this poor man. Oh well.
Oh if I can get a screeny up, I've played that typing thing before and on normal got about 160k. I could go on that thing forever.
How can a jar of peanut butter that's been man-made & protected from all sorts of rays like UV rays by the glass be proof against hundreds of years worth of experiments & evidence? Some people are very stupid. Same thing with religion - how can people let their lives revolve around the fact that an afterlife exists despite there being no reason for that other than a book & other people to tell them it exists who got their info from the same book? Hey, did you know there's a giant chocolate factory that makes magical sweets & is run by someone called willy wonka? Oh it's true, I read it in a book...
ha there are so many ways I could beat you in an argument.
Firstly, we didn't have an Ozone when man was supposed to be created, so man should be burnt up. Secondly, the earth was created by astroids that colided at the PERFECT time at the perfect angle with the perfect tempature which is almost imposable because astroids colide alot beond the moon. But since it was created from three giant rocks that formed lava, then atmosphere, then life all from nothing? Impossable.
Secondly, The Bible is the only book to survive since the death of christ. So many other powerful books were destroyed. If Jesus never came down why would people be Chatholic? There weren't any before the Birth of Christ. Now if your thinking about the Davinci code or that he was just another regular guy, then why would people follow him and the Davinci code was just a story.
Thirdly, Your an idiot. Are you depressed? Or are you generally happy, have alot of money, lots of friends, not going to lie about the answer, and have little to no enemies? I do. I follow god and get what I want and am protected. Maybe you can try too. Santain wants you alot, but your just going to die and go to a worse place.
Fourthly, I love arguing, and since I go to an emo school, I got so much more to say, and can beat you no matter what you try and throw at me. I got GOD.
Finally, I hope your not offended. You really are a nice person. I hope you have a nice day my friend :)

There weren't any before the Birth of Christ.
there actually were.
except they weren't known as catholics,,

Frankoman, whoever you I have got to say I am impressed by not only your ignorance, but how confident you seem in the points you are making.

I, myself am not an Antheist, I consider myself Christian, I'm just not your typical Christian. I, myself believe that life EVOLVED, as countless tests and evidence has proven.

Nearly everything in your post regarding science is complete crap.
Firstly, we didn't have an Ozone when man was supposed to be created
Honestly, all I have to say is...WHAT? Where do you think you are getting THAT information from? Completely untrue, sure LIFE may have exsisted without and atmosphere but not MAN.

Honestly, I see this way to much. Kids think that they can discount science and not care about learning anything about the world around them because they are afraid that if they don't see some magical holy power as essence of exsistence and find an atom, that it disproves their religion. If your FAITH is so strong, it really wouldn't bother you so much.

Maybe before trying to argue AGAINST science, you should learn some more about it. This disgusting display was also placed in the video, the penut butter example was the equivilent of saying that, if you placed a cover on the hole in a golf course, blindfolded yourself, spun around, and teed off, and the ball didn't go in, that it is impossible for the ball to ever go in the hole....


then atmosphere, then life all from nothing? Impossable. This kind of close-mindedness to grasp a concept outside of your own miniscule expeirence of the way the world around you works, that will hold you back from expanding your mind, probably for the rest of your life.

If you are so smart tell me why if all of the peices that require life are in place, that life wouldn't form?

hey, just wanted to point out...DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PRESERVATIVES THEY PUT INTO MOST OF OUR FOOD?! nothing would ever survive that!! plus the energy from a light bulb while sitting on a grocery shelf is completely different than a bolt of lightning or what not....

thread forecast: unending 'religion vs science' argument

recommendation: close thread?

Nice Update I Got About 51,000 on that game the i quit cus it was jsut plain boring :P

And and penut butter... WTF its one of the fowlest foods ever made....and to put you al lstraight even if we know our origin what will it do? you'll still carry on with your "normal" lives... + religion is just something to cheer all of us up about death eg "there is an after life where nothing hurst and chocolate flows like rivers..." and on the other hand "IF You Steal You Will Go To HELL!!!!" If You Get Me..



Good Day To You All :)

Don't close the thread yet... This is fun and educational. Now people can see two sides of the story!
Frankoman, whoever you I have got to say I am impressed by not only your ignorance, but how confident you seem in the points you are making.
Thankyou. In school all they do is push evolution from 8th grade to 12th and college. Me being a man of faith and having studied both evolution and the bible, hope i can make my points clear in the most simple of terms.
I, myself am not an Antheist, I consider myself Christian, I'm just not your typical Christian. I, myself believe that life EVOLVED, as countless tests and evidence has proven.
That is reasonable, but evolution hasn’t been proven. If it was proven it wouldn't be the "Theory of evolution". In reality, my CCD teacher made a good point saying that it wasn't even a theory, but a hypothesis. Just because we have found skulls of animals that are probably extinct that were similar to monkies and humans, doesn't mean we are them. If life evolved and the first human civilizations were from Mesopotamia so long ago, how come there was no evolving from then? Look at the early forms of paintings, or even the renaissance paintings. Why haven't humans continued evolving?
Nearly everything in your post regarding science is complete crap.
Honestly, all I have to say is...WHAT? Where do you think you are getting THAT information from? Completely untrue, sure LIFE may have existed without and atmosphere but not MAN.
Tell that to my science teachers who have been telling me the same thing over and over. But as I stated before, how could LIFE have started if three random meteors collided, then suddenly formed lava which created a permanent magma (core) and then created a livable environment, and out of nothing comes life, which is clearly something? And look at how complex the human body is. You can't say it was just created. There is way to much amazing things in our body.
Honestly, I see this way to much. Kids think that they can discount science and not care about learning anything about the world around them because they are afraid that if they don't see some magical holy power as essence of existence and find an atom, that it disproves their religion. If your FAITH is so strong, it really wouldn't bother you so much.
Yeah i see it a lot too both that way and vise versa, but the difference is I am not a little kid. And you’re wrong with your last sentence. That’s like saying "If you don't support abortion then it shouldn't bother you that people are doing it.
Maybe before trying to argue AGAINST science, you should learn some more about it. This disgusting display was also placed in the video, the peanut butter example was the equivalent of saying that, if you placed a cover on the hole in a golf course, blindfolded yourself, spun around, and teed off, and the ball didn't go in, that it is impossible for the ball to ever go in the hole....
This kind of close-mindedness to grasp a concept outside of your own miniscule experience of the way the world around you works, that will hold you back from expanding your mind, probably for the rest of your life.
As I said before, I have studied in many fields of Science, and had two required honors classes that dealed with evolution.
And if your Science faith was so strong, why does it bother you that they used the peanut butter? But really the Peanut butter is a great example. Your little golf ball anatomy is... really nothing good, just another way to pull people in the wrong direction, like science says with killing a fetus at 4 weeks old it isn't alive. I can prove it is alive if you want.
f you are so smart tell me why if all of the pieces that require life are in place, that life wouldn't form?
your question doesn't make sense. Firstly, how did all these pieces come into place? Secondly, how could a fish turn to a monkey then to a human? Answer those to impress me. But just to make it harder.
If you dissect a fish, and if you don't think fish is right even though science says FISH, take a tadpole, and dissect it, is nowhere near as complex as the human anatomy. Same with monkies.
Well as I said you seem like a really cool guy so don’t take any of our arguing personally like everyone at our school does.*Sigh* Kids. They hear something that could turn down what they believe and they flip. When I loose an argument I don’t flip out, I take it in as more experience for me and hope the arguer gets congratulated.

I have one question to your whole belief of creationism.
Where do fossils fit into your little bubble of "poof" existence?
The bible is a book made by Man. Powerful, intelligent, wise, men yes, but men.
To be blinded into an absolute following of Christ because they tell you what you are reading means, is not what Christ wanted. Remember Christianity is not forced it is chosen, taught, deliberated, celebrated. To say that because your "faith" is strong willed means that your supposed to deliberate, means that your not sure. The truth is what you believe it to be. Hell, take it in stride that you know something we do not and understand something we do not understand.
That and evolution just celebrates our past. We made it, our fathers killed, hunted, worked. Our mothers raised, taught, and suffered. We are the best the survivors of life. you maybe right that we are all created by a greater power but what got us here is our past and you can not deny that you are here because your ancestors evolved, adapted to the world. Remember even religion was created and evolved.
Good day to you.
P.S. my peanut butter evolved to energy. Who would of thunk it.

I tried the cheat for the hinge game...Don't know about y'all, but when I right-click, a little menu pops up and the guy goes SPLAT.Help!.

Also, about the whole peanut-butter-proves-Creationism thing, I agree that didn't make any sense. I don't see why the guy bothered to make a useless claim like that. Don't let that guy be a stereotype for all Creationists.

Creationism is a legitimate theory with legitimate evidence. Some evidence comes from the Bible (a book written by men who were inspired by God, so the Bible contains the words of God Himself, though written down indirectly). Scientific Evidence for Creationism (and/or Young Earth):

-If the volcanoes around today always produced lava at the same rate for 4.5 billion years, the lava would be equivalent to the size of the earth

-Human Population Statistics showing that there are about 6 billion people in the world are consistent with there being 8 people (the survivors of the biblical Flood) a few thousand years ago. If man evolved a million years ago, we should have about 1 followed by 27,000 0's people on earth

There's plenty more if I had time.

Check out http://www.creationism.org/genesis.htm
=====
I have one question to your whole belief of creationism.
Where do fossils fit into your little bubble of "poof" existence?
The bible is a book made by Man. Powerful, intelligent, wise, men yes, but men.
To be blinded into an absolute following of Christ because they tell you what you are reading means, is not what Christ wanted. Remember Christianity is not forced it is chosen, taught, deliberated, celebrated. To say that because your "faith" is strong willed means that your supposed to deliberate, means that your not sure. The truth is what you believe it to be. Hell, take it in stride that you know something we do not and understand something we do not understand.
That and evolution just celebrates our past. We made it, our fathers killed, hunted, worked. Our mothers raised, taught, and suffered. We are the best the survivors of life. you maybe right that we are all created by a greater power but what got us here is our past and you can not deny that you are here because your ancestors evolved, adapted to the world. Remember even religion was created and evolved.
Good day to you.
P.S. my peanut butter evolved to energy. Who would of thunk it.

Animals were fossilized instantly by massive amounts of water that covered the whole earth (according to the biblical account). This is supported by finding whale fossils on top of mountains and trees fossilized upside-down.

Is it true that "truth is what you believe it to be" or not? Answer carefully...

Dutchdude, have you ever herd or a thing called death, disease etc..

Okay the funny thing here is, even if the theory of evolution was just amazingly disproved by superior intelligent people *sarcasm*. What makes you Catholics so damn sure that you're religion is the right one that everyone else is going to hell? Have you taken time to actually look into how many other religions there are out there? A lot of them require people to pray or do things or celebrate certain holidays and also a lot state that if you worship false idols or false gods you're gonna end up in hell or some other bad place anyway. So, even if you believe the theory of evolution was just disproved with a jar of peanut butter, don't go singing your hallelujahs to everyone else.

Personally I'm an agnostic believer. There's so many religions and bullshit forced on people in the world I decided instead of following the rules that some book lays down to me and begging for forgiveness from a priest or other religious figure I'll live my life by my morals, decide what's right and wrong based on common sense and in the end find out when I die.

The problem religion has, is that no one can prove with the slightest bit of evidence that god exists. The human mind is quite stupid & will seek the easiest answer to a problem - that's a non-arguable fact. Only when you let your own will power go into more depth will you start challenging it. if a cloud looked like a huge hand, some religious would probably be saying that god made it as a sign. What he doesn't know is that he passes MILLIONS of random things everyday that don't ressemble anything human, but this one time when it happens, it had to happen on purpose. It was bound to happen at some point.

Why are people put in mental institutes for believing it's okay to be a cannibal by people who believe a big floating guy sits on a cloud making people?

Also, to whoever said that "the human body is too complicated to have just been made by accident blah blah blah", why would a load of chemicals reactions that happen in the way they do be so hard to do?

Someone find me a SINGLE piece of solid evidence that this god guy exists & I'll give them my bank card & pin number. That's an actually challenge, so go ahead & send me a private message. I can then tear apart your theory, shit on it & laugh as I give it back.

Look at the early forms of paintings, or even the renaissance paintings.

Well, you say you understand the concepts behind evolution, but with you saying things like this it makes it obvious that you know very little about the theory of evolution.

The renaissance began in the 1300s, so that is 700 years you have given humans to evolve, and seeing no evolution you say it disproves the theory. One of the most fundamental rules of evolution is the massive amount of time it takes for even the smallest changes to take place in lines of species.

Evolution took place over MILLIONS of years, not HUNDREDS. Regardless of which side you take you have to agree that we need to understand that the events taking place are in extents of time beyond most humans comprehension.

Your next point pretty much is saying that how did life come out of nothing.

Again this has everything to do with massive amounts of time and space beyond anything within human experience.

The scientific theory is that the exact right amounts of the exact right elements and componds happened to fall into the right places next to each other. Then, when given the right amount of energy, a primitive, simple, single-celled organism formed.

Impossible? In terms of the chances of this happening on what we see on earth today, yes. But think of it this way, there are billions of stars in the galaxy, and billions of galaxies in the universe.

Not all of them have planets with the right tempurature, etc. to support life, but when you are talking about somewhere near 3x10^12 stars the LEAST amount of these planets to logically exsist is somewhere near 999 trillion PROBABLY MORE.

Now, to explain this I'll go back to the golf analogy. But this time imagine the ball and hole is 10 times smaller than on a normal golf course, and the hole is not covered, again you blindfold yourself and hit in a random direction with random power. And it doesn't go in, obviously.

But if you say that the elements and compounds will never fall into the right places, then you are saying that the ball will never go in, even if you hit it 999 trillion times, since life COULD have formed on any of those planets, and it just happened to be earth.



"If you don't support abortion then it shouldn't bother you that people are doing it."

You have a point here actually, I take back what I said in that part of my post.

Secondly, how could a fish turn to a monkey then to a human?

It did, but very slowly. Think of it this way, if I made it so that you could live for 100 billion years, do you think you would look anything like you did today at the end of that? AND in this case, we are talking about different generations which gave the species even more ability to change.


how could LIFE have started if three random meteors collided

You say again and again you are educated in science but the more I read the more it seems like you aren't. Where are these three meteors coming from? I've never heard of such a theory before and frankly, it sounds ridiculous. There is no way for anyone to know when the first organism formed, and the energy needed to form a single celled organism is about as much as is stored in the soda I'm drinking, not stored in three meteors.



don’t take any of our arguing personally
I never take argueing personally, I might judge you from it if you seem foolish or immature, but so far you really don't seem either, but your points ARE full of holes.

Animals were fossilized instantly by massive amounts of water that covered the whole earth (according to the biblical account). This is supported by finding whale fossils on top of mountains and trees fossilized upside-down.

This can also be explained by the PROVEN happening of tectonic plates shifting.


Lastly, Well as I said you seem like a really cool guy thank you, but I'm just wondering, why am I any better than Robwasripped, who, you replyed to with saying Your an idiot. after he expressed his opinions exactly as I did. Honestly, I am really wondering how much it has to do with my saying I was Christian...

Is it true that "truth is what you believe it to be" or not? Answer carefully...
It is true. The real question is that if it is reality...
And it is all theory.
Remember truth and what is true only applies to the known not the past.
We can find out logically that we are different than our past. But the reality is that to believe in blind faith is a choice. As much as it is the people who read this and choose to believe ,to agree, to disagree. Remember even the great Napoleon Bonaparte acknowledged Christ... the God not the man... Jesus Christ was no man if you believe in the bible as your truth tell me that you accept the fact, then you'll see the reality of your Faith.

lol @ python....freakin awesome

Yea the little part at the end kinda stunned me for a sec. XD
Where can one find the actual news video scoop at? =P

Oh noes! Don't forget the bananas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwbhAXe5yk

thank you, but I'm just wondering, why am I any better than Robwasripped, who, you replied to with saying
Quote:
Your an idiot.
after he expressed his opinions exactly as I did. Honestly, I am really wondering how much it has to do with my saying I was Christian...
The same reason why you called me arrogant. I didn't mean it personally; just that he made a totally oblivious point and seemed relatively incompetent and totally unthought-of.
Now you are a very smart person and I am impressed by your skills.
but your points ARE full of holes.
I will try to clean up here. But After this post I won't be fizzing anything. I don't want to seem too incompetent and arrogant and driven to prove something if you are able to disprove me.
Where are these three meteors coming from?
The Big Bang. It is supposedly the most logic reason how the earth was created. Others say it was pushed from the sun..?
It did, but very slowly. Think of it this way, if I made it so that you could live for 100 billion years, do you think you would look anything like you did today at the end of that? AND in this case, we are talking about different generations which gave the species even more ability to change.
Good point. But wasn't the earth only 6 billion years old and life less than half of that? Other than that that is a very good point.
The renaissance began in the 1300s, so that is 700 years you have given humans to evolve, and seeing no evolution you say it disproves the theory. One of the most fundamental rules of evolution is the massive amount of time it takes for even the smallest changes to take place in lines of species.
Evolution took place over MILLIONS of years, not HUNDREDS. Regardless of which side you take you have to agree that we need to understand that the events taking place are in extents of time beyond most humans’ comprehension.
Your right, but I also mentioned Egypt and Mesopotamia, and there artwork, although crude, still depicts humans which are similar to now.
the scientific theory is that the exact right amounts of the exact right elements and compounds happened to fall into the right places next to each other. Then, when given the right amount of energy, a primitive, simple, single-celled organism formed.
As the peanut butter showed, how could this happen? Think of the case the peanut butter is in, that is our Ozone which protects us from light and energy. Then think about what our earth was when it was first created. The air was toxic, methane and other junk if I remember correctly, and acids which make life imposable to happen.
Not all of them have planets with the right temperature, etc. to support life, but when you are talking about somewhere near 3x10^12 stars the LEAST amount of these planets to logically exist is somewhere near 999 trillion PROBABLY MORE.
If there are such odds that there can be another planet with other life, can that mean that aliens are real? Hmm... What are the odds that we are the planet that could support life? Awesome.
This can also be explained by the PROVEN happening of tectonic plates shifting.
Hmm I never was exposed to how plate tectonics can do that. Can you expand on this? I am interested in learning. That’s what this argument is mostly for, no? Learning opinions and stances of Evolution and Creationism?
I never take arguing personally I might judge you from it if you seem foolish or immature, but so far you really don't seem either
Thank you. I try not to look immature at those who can or are better than me, and foolishness is only possible by those "who speak what they not know, and know what they not speak". And another famous quote that goes with that " "Do not pretend to be what you think to be, for you surely will be what you pretend to be"

Oh noes! Don't forget the bananas!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwbhAXe5yk

.......ok this is why I don't heavily go on religion lol.
=====
Okay the funny thing here is, even if the theory of evolution was just amazingly disproved by superior intelligent people *sarcasm*. What makes you Catholics so damn sure that you're religion is the right one that everyone else is going to hell? Have you taken time to actually look into how many other religions there are out there? A lot of them require people to pray or do things or celebrate certain holidays and also a lot state that if you worship false idols or false gods you're gonna end up in hell or some other bad place anyway. So, even if you believe the theory of evolution was just disproved with a jar of peanut butter, don't go singing your hallelujahs to everyone else.
Personally I'm an agnostic believer. There's so many religions and bullshit forced on people in the world I decided instead of following the rules that some book lays down to me and begging for forgiveness from a priest or other religious figure I'll live my life by my morals, decide what's right and wrong based on common sense and in the end find out when I die.

Exactly what I was thinking as well. People have gotten so far into religion that they are blinded by thinking their religion is the "right" one, when infact religion never existed until humans came into evolution. It's all about a person's beliefs. You can hate me for thinking that, but that's what it is. You got people out there saying they received a message from <instert deity name here>, saying what they are gonna do is better. Well, if every person that said that had it happen, we're still in a crappy world. I don't mind a person having a belief in something, but don't push it as if it was a fact. It's even more absurd how they are viewing into how things are created, affected, etc, but I don't see any puting it out there in effect to make the world a better place honestly.

enough posts with paragraphs thank you everyone..:)
my eyes are beginning to bleed

yea i cant really be bothered to read the long words so i guess its sumit funny so i say lol

I just want to make my point heard, even if none of you want to listen to it

during the first couple of years of secondary school, we were taught the whole 'created by god' in RE (Religious Education) but after that, RE became less of how the earth was made, and how different religions saw themselves on earth, and with other people.

in the final 3 years, science took up the whole evolution theory, though again, this wasnt stuffed down our throats. to be honest, i found all this more believable than it was god who created earth. i was brought up with a bit of each theory, yet i CHOSE to believe one of them at the time. I left school at the age of 16 with that belief firmly in my head, though i was very much aware of creationalistic view.

then, about 15 months ago, i met my (no ex) girlfriend. she wasnt religious, but she sang in a church choir (her mum was religious, said my girlfriend was the devil at some point lol makes me think religious is a joke when i hear stuff like that). because emma was always singing at church on sunday, and i wanted to spend as much time with her as poss, i started going to church. remember, b4 then, i had only been to church twice, and that was when i was less than 10 years old. i had always thort that religion kept preaching on about 'god made earth, simple as' yet in my year of going to church, twice a day, almost every sunday, i was amazed at how broad minded they were.

different religions have different beliefs. we all know that (look at extremists, and pacifists. both have beliefs, even if they are totally differen). you dont have to be religous to have a belief. you just need an imagination.

we've also all heard of 'mutating' cells, causing problems for the human body, like cancer. mutation of a cell is, quite simply, evolution.

accoring to certain religions, god only created two humans. adam, and eve. I just cant believe that adam and eve were the first people on our earth. if they had 2 kids, brother and sister, for the human race to carry on, the brother and sister would have to have kids, or a parent and child would have to have a kid. this leads to inbreds (im sorry, cant think of a better word). which, in itself, is a form of evolution. the thing is, scripture tells us adam and eve look identical to us. two arms, two legs, one head, no dissabilities (as most commonly seen with inbreds (sorry, im trying to use that word as minimal as possible)).

even if creationalism is true, evolution would have happend, even if it was through inbreds, survival of the fittest, or just plain fate.

People choose. Everyone makes a choice. as we grow, and learn more things, our choices become more soffisticated. some can call that evolution. others call it simply 'growing up'
everyone evolves in the lifetime. a child brought up in a rich family who has everthing is different from a child brought up in poor estates. it is down to their surroundings that decides who they become. the body adapts to its surroundings. someone who lives in the sahara desert, where body fat it not needed so they are very thin, goes to live in antartica, their body stores the fat to keep it warm. a few years of this new climate, u see that person adapting to their surroundings, and becoming fat. isnt evolution simply adapting to your suroundings?

i know i have explained myself poorly. you can rip this post to pieces if you want (which you probably will). it will be interesting to see what you make of it. or you can ignore it. i just want to make my points, no matter how poorly i explained them

This may sound wierd, but I believe both. And here's an interesting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman Also, find an image of Ötzi's skeleton, and you will see how different he is from humans (even without the defilement to his body suffered when the discoverers thought he was a recent body.)

on death by hinge...

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4568/wtur2.png (http://imageshack.us)
CROSS MY HEART AND HOPE TO DIE. THIS IS NOT A LIE.

ok, to clear up any non-believers, i'll tell you the hit.

start like this: http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8461/14905181cc2.png (http://imageshack.us)
EDIT: sorry, please have your cursor all the way to the right boundaries of your screen.
then swivel the cursor like a whip to the left, then let go. this should make the hinge move at LIGHTENING SPEED. but of course i cant tell, it goes to fast to make sense, 1 second your in the normal place, then you in some weird place with no snow
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/254/81795044rg8.png (http://imageshack.us)


with that hit i got a bad hit :D
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/701/17420522pj8.png (http://imageshack.us)

I can't read any of your arguments because they are all full of incredibly irritating grammatical errors. Half of your sentences aren't even full sentences; they have missing words and just plain don't make sense.

Good day to you, too.

enough fucking long posts.
make them one or two lines.
a paragraph at most!

That's got to be a Daily Show joke right? Damn, they're idiots.

Their teleological proof: Because we don't see any organisms arise from vacuum sealed, carbon-structured substances, life has to have originated from creationism.

Oh boy.

yes.
and it does not take the energy of 3 meteors to create a single living cell.
think, how many cells does your body make when it grows?

It is all irrelevant.
As long as: Christ was killed on the cross 2000+ years ago WITH witnesses ( roman and jewish) and then 3 days later, came back to life, as witnessed again by many many people, proven by the fact that the entire roman empire (the guys that were in charge of nailing him there in the first place...) was converted to Christianity after seeing a dead man walking around alive and well; then, there is nothing more to say.

what the fuck are you talking about?

enough fucking long posts.
make them one or two lines.
a paragraph at most!
Why?
can't read any of your arguments because they are all full of incredibly irritating grammatical errors.
English isn't my first language, unless you all speak German or Italian or Danish, then we can work something out.

BV2, good point. we can leave it there.

Their teleological proof: Because we don't see any organisms arise from vacuum sealed, carbon-structured substances, life has to have originated from creationism.
Put it in the persection of EARTH. they have a good Idea improvised in short LayMans turms.

Was this short enough?

why is everybody talking so complicated

Sorry for long posts, but I have to counter every point of the other sides arguement, that's just the way it works.

NSF12345, your head is in the right place, but you are confused about a couple of things. 'mutating' cells, causing problems for the human body, like cancer. mutation of a cell is, quite simply, evolution.

Mutation in cells is not evolution, mutation is caused by DAMAGE to the DNA, not changing of it, which is why instead of it HELPING us survive it can kill us. In the case of cancer cells, when a cell is damaged, instead of shutting down like it's SUPPOSED to do, it starts dividing rapidly, which is what cancerous tumors are.

everyone evolves in the lifetime. a child brought up in a rich family who has everthing is different from a child brought up in poor estates. it is down to their surroundings that decides who they become. the body adapts to its surroundings. someone who lives in the sahara desert, where body fat it not needed so they are very thin, goes to live in antartica, their body stores the fat to keep it warm. a few years of this new climate, u see that person adapting to their surroundings, and becoming fat. isnt evolution simply adapting to your suroundings?

No, you are confusing ADAPTATION with EVOLUTION, both are one of the five charecteristics of living organisms. Adaptation takes place in a single organism in the ways you describe, however adaption is limited to very small changes. Evolution takes place over many generations and usually is associated with very large changes.

BV2 that's totally off topic, as NSF12345 said, this doesn't have to do with an arguement between Christianity and Science, because as I said before I believe in Christianity but in this case I am argueing the scientific view just because to me it seems much more likely.

Now onto Franko's post:
The Big Bang. It is supposedly the most logic reason how the earth was created.

Now this is just to much...you don't understand the Big Bang Theory?

The Big Bang Theory, has nothing to do with how the earth was created, it covers how the UNIVERSE and ALL matter in it was created, and there were NO meteors involved, because, before the Big Bang, there were no meteors, or any matter.

Earth WAS formed by leftover molten matter from the Sun that hardened to form our planet but life didn't form on earth until much later.

Mesopotamian Era started in 4000 BC, which is 6000 years, which evolution still needs more time for any major changes. Still it is argueable whether small changes should be noticeable IN MOST SPECIES. However, while it's possible for evolution to work that quickly under some, desprate circumstances, when a species is quickly dying due to new circumstances and has to change a limb, etc. HOWEVER, the Mesopotamian Era marked the arrise of literate cultures, which means it was a time of prosperity (If you are having problems surviving because you can't eat, etc. you aren't going to spend time to develop a language.). And even IF humans were having problems surviving and not been in a time of prosperity in which their bodies were suiting them fine, there is no telling whether or not evolution would have taken place in that short amount of time. Evolution arrises from nessecity, and during this time we were functioning better than ever. Usually, the only thing that will ever evolve something major, like a limb, in this amount of time, are things such as small bugs.


If there are such odds that there can be another planet with other life, can that mean that aliens are real? Hmm... What are the odds that we are the planet that could support life?

"What are the odds that we are the planet that can support life?"
Well let me ask you this, are we the planet or are we the life? What I'm saying is that we could be on ANY of those are other planets, though we probably would have named it the same thing. We just happened to be on this one which is one of the ones that could support life.


As the peanut butter showed, how could this happen?
Because PEANUT BUTTER does NOT contain the nessecary elements and compounds for life, and DEFINATELY not arranged in the correct ways.

For example, all of the amino acids in peanut butter are already bonded into proteins, which means, until they are broken down the only thing they can be is peanuts, which are dead and mixed into peices throughout the butter.

There are alot of things on earth that aren't in that peanut butter jar. Not to mention, there's really no way for the elements in the peanut butter jar to even GET CLOSE to being in the right places to forum an organism, because whether you know it or not, there already are organisms in your peanut butter. Small, single-celled microscopic beings are eating in the jar of even the cleanest peanut butter in the supermarket. So even if the elements got close enough for it to be a part of the jigsaw puzzle of what's nessecary to form life (though the chances of them doing that are, impossible, because the peanut butter is not moving) before the new organism forms, some of those single celled organisms would come and suck up the yummy fragment of primordial soup.


Then think about what our earth was when it was first created. The air was toxic, methane and other junk if I remember correctly, and acids which make life imposable to happen.

WRONG, as you said yourself, life has only exsisted on Earth for half of earth's time in exsistance, LIFE WAS NOT DEALING WITH THE EARTH "WHEN IT WAS FIRST CREATED"

And yes, at the time when life first appeared, there were things such as methane and "other junk" that would be toxic to HUMANS, dunno were the acids are coming from. However, for a SINGLE CELLED ORGANISM that DOESN'T EVEN BREATHE this wouldn't be to much of a problem. When life first formed the atmosphere was mostly CARBON DIOXIDE, there was no oxygen, a proven scientific fact. So why do we have oxygen today? Well, the scientific theory on it is the millions of photosynthesising organisms pumped oxygen into the atmosphere as a byproduct of photosynthesis. For those who believe the evolutionary theory, bet you never knew you evolved to survive on something that was created by another organism.

But if you believe in creationism, then tell me, how did the oxygen in our atmosphere come to be before we were created?

First post woo....
<p>
I was raised catholic and did all the god created earth stuff in RE and at home. I'm a physics minded person and studying cosmology and biology was great. It was only when i was about 16 when i was utterly shocked to find out that people took the stories of creaton LITERALLY!
<p>
I don't want to get into the miracle debate here, but people interpret things in a way they can understand at the time, which then becomes fact.
<p>
--For example, the parting of the seas.... a much more logical explanation is that the tide came in. things inevitably get distorted over time, the story of what happened may have been passed down through a number of generations before being written down.
<p>
--Another example, tongues of fire appear above their heads.... 13 men hiding in a small, hot room in a disease stricken time most likely with lack of food and water would probably have had fevers etc...
<p>
--Noah and the arc, scientifically impossible for him to have included two of every animal. It is concievable that he may have taken a number of species, but that would mean that all the others we have around today EVOLVED from the ones he saved. --- Also, the 'floods' given recent evants (tsunami/hurricane catrina) it is most likely that it was simply a natural disaster, not direct intervention.
<p>
life goes on every day without direct intervention from god, he works in mysterious ways incomprehendable to humans (if that is what you believe)
If that is the case, god created earth, he created matter, he chose how mater would interact with itself, he created the laws of physics.
<p>
Ae we saying god couldn't create a universe where life could exist wihout him intervening.
<p>
religion is basing a book of stories, which were based on second, fourth, sixth hand versions of events written by men about events which may or may not have happened. Not just the christianity, but all religions. People may say god spoke to them and so is the word of god. Well in that case. God spoke to me a few mins ago and told me to go get a biscuit, so i did. Nobody can argue that, that is any less significant than someone hearing something 2000 years ago.
<p>
I think if god created the universe, he created it in all its imense complexity, with big bangs, evolution and all. One in which life could originate and thrive, without any intervention.
<p>
I suppose i am an atheist now, but i believe in facts. There may be a god, there may not, i would like to think there is.
<p>
I'm not terribly good at putting what i believe into a coherent format but i hope you understand what i mean. my grammar is also better when i'm not falling asleep at 1am.

Yes, understandable, but as I said before this isn't really about believing in god or not, this is about believing in CREATIONISM. Most of your post was saying Science vs. Religion, which is what this is not. Interesting post, but it really is doesn't pertain to our arguement.

People may say god spoke to them and so is the word of god. Well in that case. God spoke to me a few mins ago and told me to go get a biscuit, so i did

I find this view particularly interesting, and is why I don't believe or follow the Bible word-for-word

I can't read any of your arguments because they are all full of incredibly irritating grammatical errors. Half of your sentences aren't even full sentences; they have missing words and just plain don't make sense.
Good day to you, too.
Talking to me, I guess?

anyway, back on topic,

my agruement against the video.

1: you need certain mass, and LARGE, LARGE amounts of energy.
2: and we actually might create new life when we open peanut butter. it doesn't have to be new life. maybe mold. you know?
3: the guy in the video is overly uninformed.
4: thats almost like saying that babies cant be born. they evolve. from a little spec to annoying crying jerks that poop on you. bad analogy i know.
5: as said above on the terrible baby analogy, new life takes time to evolve, because babies arent born in 1 second instead of 9 months.

its almost like saying "even though a life time of opening peanut butter jars, i have never opened one and found god inside"

(Lol, just a joke.)

That's not so absurd
<p>

its almost like saying "even though a life time of opening peanut butter jars, i have never opened one and found god inside"
(Lol, just a joke.)
<p>
Every now and then people do actually find god in food, i remember seeing a piece of toast with the face of jesus on it on ebay.... Does that prove creationism wrong? lol
<P>
To Coldin:
Yes i guess my post was pretty much science vs religion, but that is basically what the creationism vs evolution argument is. My point was that i still struggle to believe how any educated person can think it is all literal, word for word. It is quite rediculous.
<p>
<p>

On a somewhat unrelated point, do creationists think that there is no life anywhere else in the universe? personally i think it's rather unfathomable to think that there isn't.... if it happened here it can happen somwhere else, Be that by the hand of god or not.

It is all irrelevant.
As long as: Christ was killed on the cross 2000+ years ago WITH witnesses ( roman and jewish) and then 3 days later, came back to life, as witnessed again by many many people, proven by the fact that the entire roman empire (the guys that were in charge of nailing him there in the first place...) was converted to Christianity after seeing a dead man walking around alive and well; then, there is nothing more to say.


BV2, good point. we can leave it there.
no. not good point.
we are talking about CREATIONISM in the old testament. long before jesus and infact moses (the messiah before jesus) existed. you just summed up how romans became catholics.
you my freind should read this thread a bit more!

We could have been created in 1994 with everything in place, including our memories.

So I'm in class and bored, so I was playing Death By Hinge...

And this is what I could manage:

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6671/theyhingeha1.png

I have a 1600DPI Razer mouse, and the speed is incredibly high. I think that makes a big difference. The best I could get with a touchpad is like ~5000.

I'll shorten this for all you with short attention spans. I'll try to answer my best, just woke up :P
Now this is just to much...you don't understand the Big Bang Theory?
Interesting indeed. I was raised that the Big Bang was when three asteroids collided, they all shot from the sun.
Because PEANUT BUTTER does NOT contain the necessary elements and compounds for life, and DEFINATELY not arranged in the correct ways.
Maybe not, but as you notice in the Video, they use ants as an example, ants and other small organisms could survive off of peanut butter, and if evolution is the logical reason, those small organisms could evolves to humans off of the peanut butter.
WRONG, as you said yourself, life has only existed on Earth for half of earth's time in existence, LIFE WAS NOT DEALING WITH THE EARTH "WHEN IT WAS FIRST CREATED"
True, but when the earth was created, how could all the molten lava, poisons, methane, carbon and nitrogen disappears so quickly?
I say quickly because in records, there was life before humans, and far before humans, Dinosaur fossils are found, and with our technology, we know the dates of there death and birth.
now I saw your explanation, but that seems like it would take too long.
OH before I continue, I can't believe i never mentioned this, but when the guy talks about the peanut butter and mentions "life couldn't start in the peanut butter if another life contaminates it"
Think of that other life as GOD. He brought us.
Now, as you have said, your Christian but believe in evolution. I have a question, do you think god had something to do with the start of evolution, or do you go straight out for science, which lies about a lot of things just because they are afraid of the truth?

--For example, the parting of the seas.... a much more logical explanation is that the tide came in. things inevitably get distorted over time, the story of what happened may have been passed down through a number of generations before being written down.

Think, how could the seas part at the exact time of moses' travel out? On the History channel, they say the sea dried up, and this only happens ever fifty thousand years... Umm... Yeah that is just idiotic, every fifty thousand years the river dries up in this exact spot, and it JUST so happened to dry up when moses wanted it to... Umm what’s wrong with that? Normally science would say that is unproportional for they say a lot of things they've proven from the bible as fake..

. --- Also, the 'floods' given recent events (tsunami/hurricane catrina) it is most likely that it was simply a natural disaster, not direct intervention.
Now think about religion. All these places that are getting hit by the strongest natural disasters heard of, what are they? Most of them are anti catholic.
Like New Orleans never got hit by a hurricane that strong in it's history, so one day it does? Then the hurricane of 38 which hit Rhode Island and Long Island, during that time, people up there were steering far from god, and they got hit by a hurricane which was a 4 out of 5 so I hear.
Then there is the west cost of America, home to the most sinners in the world, a proven fact by experts. They are getting hit hard with earthquakes, fires, rising tides and more.

Now lets look at Europe. Italy, they never get hit with anything bad, is it because of the pope? No. they are 98% catholic.

Now look at England… They are diving far away from Christianity, but what is it doing to them?
Firstly, the British isles are being flooded, and there land is being washed over by rising tides.
Then, they are running out of land. They are becoming like Japan, and almost have no lands left to build.

Then France, surprisingly, they are one of the most unchristian Christian nations. They are about 23% Christian as a whole. And what is happening to them?
There economy is crashing, and there under slow development. If this continues, there economy will crash, and they will have a depression, like when the stock markets crashed.

And you never answered how whale fossils could be found on top of mountains by plate tectonics. I’m interested in learning about that.


Oh and I don't want to get everyone pissed at me for posting what is happening to contries. It's obvious America is dead, some say it will soon become a third world country.

EDIT:
You all are very smart beond my knowledge. I'm glad I got to argue with you.

And I'll break up the pseudo-intelectual duscussion once again to say I ousted my old score :D

I suppose a screenshot's not really fair when we all know there's hax. But hey. I know It's legit. ^_^

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/8126/holyhellnz1.png

You may now resume your discussion :D

hows this? agree to dissagree on how life started. it happend. we cant change that. lets concentrate on how to stop life from ending.

http://wertible.mine.nu/untitled.jpg

Yeah, so I got over a mil on death by hinge.

Ok, I'm stopping this, sorry Frankoman, but you are to ignorant of scientific theories for me to continue argueing with you.

(And by the way, Christians are rich, gets them into all the nicest places.)

ALright. i was done anyways. Glad to have had that debate with you though!

But can you please explain how whale bones can be found on mountains! I can't find it on google.

ALright. i was done anyways. Glad to have had that debate with you though!
But can you please explain how whale bones can be found on mountains! I can't find it on google.

How come I could? http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=whale+fossils+mountains

Enjoy.

And I'll break up the pseudo-intelectual duscussion once again to say I ousted my old score :D
I suppose a screenshot's not really fair when we all know there's hax. But hey. I know It's legit. ^_^
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/8126/holyhellnz1.png
You may now resume your discussion :D
why do you keep painting over your ie7 tabs?

youre looking at dirty inernet sites arent you?

(And by the way, Christians are rich, gets them into all the nicest places.)

If you mean rich in spirit, than you're correct. But if you are talking about money(which is the most likely situation of course), you are quite wrong my friend. Btw, I'm not Catholic for the record.

good god, some of the science in this thread is awful and because after three days of trying to get over 10,000 points on death by hingeand failing I shall correct the science I know is definately wrong just in case anybody decides to use it in an actual argument

- Babies do NOT evolve in the womb, they grow.

- Evolution is just a way of development, a gene mutates and gives a particular organism a different characeristic which isn't always an advantage, e.g. cancer.

- Three meteors from the sun created the big bang? BS. Would this be the sun a few billion years AFTER the big bang. Also you talk about huge amounts of energy being needed, correct, three meteors worth? not correct. The big bang theory suggest compacted the entire universe and beyond into a space infinately small (nuclei of an atom small) that takes a f****** huge amount of energy.

- Someone said that organisms couldn't survive when the earth was created because of acids, heat and lava etc. There's an organism called an extremophile that can survive huge temperature ranges and can adapt to live off the most available gas, hell some plants even do it at the bottom of the sea. They can survive by using sulphur in respiration. (which is not breathing)

- If I were given 100 billion years to live? I would be precisely the freaking same, I would look one hell of a lot older and I might have adapted to withstand hotter or colder emperatures but my DNA wouldn't change that's not evolution that's transformation which is highly frowned upon. That theory states that organisms can will themselves to change and the change will therefore occur. I can't see seven foot tall grannies can you?

I do realise that several of you will now hate me but these are valid facts if you think anyhing is dodgy and have proof then just tell me.

it dosent take huge amounts of energy to create a living cell (this is in reference to the meteor thing i hope)

I just felt like I should also put some more factual information.

1. As learned in a high school science class, in order for life to be created from exposure to heat and energy, there has to be the correct setting. As in right chemicals, minerals, etc. Therefore, life cannot be created from a jar of peanut butter because it does not meet the requirements.

2. For whoever said that the Da Vinci Code was just a story, actually read the book. All of the facts and information given has all be found and proven. The Priory of Sion and the Knights Templar are very real, and too was the secret they kept. The only thing fictional about the book is the characters and the way they find everything out. It is historical fiction, which means that the information is true, but the story around it is fictional.

3. If evolution is false and creationism/the bible is right, that would make the world about 6,000 years old. It has been proven many, many time over and over again that there has been life before that time. Actually, about 4,599,994,000 years before that.

Animals were fossilized instantly by massive amounts of water that covered the whole earth (according to the biblical account). This is supported by finding whale fossils on top of mountains and trees fossilized upside-down.
Is it true that "truth is what you believe it to be" or not? Answer carefully...
ever heard of tectonic plate movement ? might want to look into it, also into where the plate boundries are relative to where these fossils were supposedly found (never heard of a whale fossils being found on mountians)

as for the trees being upside down, preception is relative. look at the pompei site if you want a good idea in how things can be mixed and moved around.

also, the biblical account, doesn't make sense, if there was a giant flood, and there were "8" suvivors then why are we not all buck toothed, retards caused by generations of inbreeding. (which ususally shows up within the first 2 - 3 generations of siblings)

medically, the "bible" theory cannot be supported, if you think evolution has stopped, why are we not covered in thick hair head to toe, why are people becoming taller, why are they living longer, why are traits in people from ages ago, not in them now ? evolution hate to say it, is SLOW creationists seem to think that people magically appeared sometime around their scripture, so based on that, the human race has only existed around 2000 years, which as you can guess is complete bullshit.

Interesting debate you guys have got going on. :)

Frankoman, you seem to have genuinely good intentions and a willingness to strive to understand the other opinions voiced here, and I really appreciate that. It's all too rare in most internet bitchfi—err, disagreements, and it's like a breath of fresh air. ;) However, it also seems that you are uninformed or unfamiliar with some of the factors that support your own arguments, which, sadly, is liable to undermine them. I'll try my best to order the concepts discussed by the "evolutionist side" into a coherent sequence of events in the hopes that the perception of there being "sides" will lessen. (Disclaimer: a large portion of this will be off the top of my head, so forgive me for any scientific inaccuracies.)

It starts with the Big Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang) — for the purposes of this story. All the energy that has ever been, or will ever be (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy), exists in the space of, say, the nucleus of an atom. Understandably, there's a lot of built-up pressure there, and it explodes at unbelievable speed, expanding into what later becomes known by us as The Universe. Some of the energy changes states and becomes matter over time.

By "over time", I mean trillions of years. The human mind, as imaginative as it is, is not capable of comprehending a number that large, or a span of time that long. :P The Universe rushes for nobody; it takes as much time to do things as it needs, whether or not certain tiny bits of it (us) understand that.

Gradually, all this energy and matter starts to separate into clumps. As these clumps separate, they thicken and become denser. Some of this stuff condenses into stars, and other smaller bits become what will eventually be planets. Again, this takes a frickin' long time. And it's happening everywhere, over what may as well be thought of as an infinite amount of space. Clumps of clumps of clumps are emerging, so you don't just have suns and planets, but galaxies, groups of galaxies, superclusters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercluster), and so on. Throw in a few billion (hundred billion? trillion?) more years, and you have solar systems everywhere.

One of them will be ours. But not yet, obviously.

This particular planet (the one you're seated on) is more or less in its infancy at this point. Nothing's really as defined as it is now. But hey, if it's ready, it's ready. Charles Darwin sums up that first magical moment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_life#History_of_the_concept_in_science) pretty well if you ask me:
In a letter to Joseph Dalton Hooker on February 1, 1871, Charles Darwin made the suggestion that the original spark of life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, [so] that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes". He went on to explain that "at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed."
Clearly, he's using the term "pond" really loosely. :) But read that last part again, because it's important. What he's pointing out is that back then, the Little Protein Molecule That Could was the only thing of its kind anywhere on the planet. There was nothing around to eat it, nothing to sense its presence, nothing but it, some primordial soup and the lifeless chunk of rock it sat on. The same moment of creation could happen again today, and nobody would know because some bacterium would just come along and casually eat it. (Needless to say, peanut butter doesn't make very good primordial soup.)

So back to this lone bit of protein long ago. Well, it's quite literally got all the time in the world, so it does what any good molecule does and engages in chemical reactions. Eventually, the molecule has increased in complexity. Fast forward another really long time, and you find a single-celled organism that has sssslllloooowwwwllllyyyy evolved from bunches of such protein molecules. There are different kinds, too, since different proteins got to interact with different molecules in different places over time. Single-celled organisms rule the Earth, more or less, until more chance mutations hit upon an interesting variation: multi-celled ones.

Continue the evolutionary process ad nauseam for billions of years, and we start seeing awesome stuff like dinosaurs and mammals and hardier variations on the single-celled organisms. Yes, there absolutely are gaps in this history; that's why there are multiple theories for questions like what killed the dinosaurs in such a way that it caused them to be fossilized, or what stages in our own evolution into present-day humans we're missing, because there are gaps there, too. The purpose of science is to learn more about the Universe, in the hopes that new knowledge will gradually help us piece together the answers to some of our questions.

Now, it can take hundreds of thousands of years for the evolutionary process to make even piddly little changes (just as well; have you seen the X-Men movies?), and the entire recorded history of the human race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_history) only goes back a few thousand. It's very likely that we just haven't had enough time to really see any noticeable changes. It's thought to be only within the last ten thousand years or so that we became mentally complex enough to start wondering what created us in the first place, leading to spirituality and religion.

And this, of course, doesn't rule out that similar processes have taken place in other places in the Universe. It'd be as if you had an infinite number of testing labs, each with slightly different conditions, and you could just sit back and see which ones did interesting things. Ours would obviously be one of them. Perhaps the exact same "spark of life" occurred on another planet, but one carbon atom was one micron to the left and that ruined the entire potential chain reaction. Perhaps there are some planets where something even more successful took place, and we just haven't found out about it yet.


WHEW! Deep breath. Oy, that was long.


Okay, now you may be thinking that this story conveniently rebukes the notion of the Almighty God creating everything out of nothing and magically plopping us humans here on the Earth. In fact, it doesn't at all.

Well, if the Universe came from the Big Bang, where did the Big Bang come from? Even if all that compression was a result of the collapse of a previous universe, what caused this grand cycle to exist? Or did it really? A truly all-powerful god would undoubtedly find it easy to simply place everything in its place and press Play! The truth is, the more you know, the more questions you realize there are to be answered. Science and religion both strive toward those answers in their own ways, just as one might view all religions as different ways of acknowledging that infinite creative force that we feel must exist.

Personally, I do believe that an ultimate creator (I hesitate to just call it God...it'd be like having a pet rabbit and naming it "Rabbit") designed everything, from what an atom is to the laws of physics and energy to the awe-inspiring interplay between mathematics and nature which can be observed everywhere. It seems impossible to me that such an incredible and mind-numbingly vast system, with such exquisite simplicity and such magnificent complexity, could not be the work of a higher being. I was raised Catholic, but have since left behind the trappings of the organized religion in favour of adapting my own system of spiritual beliefs.

I believe it's after 3:30 in the morning here, and that I'll go to bed. :P

here it is

I've been thinking about the stuff you guys have been talking about all day (I read it all last night), and I really am having a hard time choosing what to believe.
This may be a very good or very stupid question, but here it is: If every organism on earth evolved, why is every organism symmetrical? Is it just chance that EVERY SINGLE living organism on Earth is symmetrical? Why did ALL animals evolve to have TWO eyes? why not 1? why not 3? If humans walked on 4 legs before we evolved to bipeds, why did we not stay like that? When things evolve, they do so for a purpose, right? Four legs sure seem more steady to me than two (I thought of a counter for this argument: maybe we evolved so that we could reach fruit in trees, just as giraffes evolved a long neck to eat from the trees as well.). But back to my original question. You would think at least ONE organism would have evolved some imperfection. Animals' internal composition is not symmetrical, why is the exterior? Wouldn't it be the simplest path for evolution to take just mould the exterior of the body to fit the interior?
88.2% of humans use their right hand for nearly everything they do. If it is this arm that lifts things 88.2% of the time, why hasn't the right arm developed a thicker bone than the left arm? Why doesn't more muscle grow naturally on the right arm than on the left in the womb? It has been proven that animals also have limb dominance, and that this limb dominance is not by choice, but a phenomenon of the brain.

If every organism on earth evolved, why is every organism symmetrical? Is it just chance that EVERY SINGLE living organism on Earth is symmetrical? Why did ALL animals evolve to have TWO eyes? why not 1? why not 3?

Not all animals have only two eyes, but two eyes may be the optimal number of eyes to have. Two eyes provide depth perception -- something that one eye will not allow. As an experiment you can do, try throwing a paper ball into a trash can at a distance with one eye open. Then try doing it with two eyes. You'll notice that it is difficult to estimate how far you have to throw the ball.

The more eyes an organism has, the more energy it will need to consume to maintain its eyes. This goes with all organs in an organism. This is why you don't see an organism with ten hearts, five lungs, seven stomachs, etc. all at once. An organism may however develop certain organs, while simplifying others. This can be seen in a comparison between humans and cows. On one hand, humans have highly developed brains, but a relatively simple digestive system. On the other hand, cows have smaller brain sizes, but complex digestive systems (e.g. four "stomachs"). What I just talked about is called the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis.

As to answer your question about symmetry. I have less to say because I do not know much about it (I'm not a biological sciences major). I would imagine it is because it provides balance throughout the organism. Major organs, such as the central nervous system and the brain, can be located exactly along the middle of the organism. This will minimize any time difference between nerve responses of the left and right sides of the organism.

If humans walked on 4 legs before we evolved to bipeds, why did we not stay like that? When things evolve, they do so for a purpose, right? Four legs sure seem more steady to me than two (I thought of a counter for this argument: maybe we evolved so that we could reach fruit in trees, just as giraffes evolved a long neck to eat from the trees as well.).

It is true that ancestral humans were once quadrupedal. According to one theory, these humans lived at a time when trees covered most of the land. Then a significant climate change occurred. This changed caused large open grasslands to appear. To adapt to the grasslands, these humans evolved to bipeds. Bipedalism allowed for easier travel on the open grasslands.

But back to my original question. You would think at least ONE organism would have evolved some imperfection. Animals' internal composition is not symmetrical, why is the exterior? Wouldn't it be the simplest path for evolution to take just mould the exterior of the body to fit the interior?

But they are close to symmetrical. Take a look at the human body. The brain lies on the center axis of the body. Two lungs take up either side of the chest cavity. The heart lies in the middle. The kidneys are also on either side of the body. The liver is centered in the body. The intestines are coiled up but are also centered. The eyes and ears are set the same distance apart from the center symmetry axis. The nose and mouth lie on the axis. The spinal cord runs down the axis. The reproductive organs also reflect symmetry about the axis.


88.2% of humans use their right hand for nearly everything they do. If it is this arm that lifts things 88.2% of the time, why hasn't the right arm developed a thicker bone than the left arm? Why doesn't more muscle grow naturally on the right arm than on the left in the womb? It has been proven that animals also have limb dominance, and that this limb dominance is not by choice, but a phenomenon of the brain.

As for limb dominance, I have no information about it. Perhaps someone else can enlighten you.

As a side note: Hypothesis is a set of predictions made from observations of some natural phenomena. It becomes a theory when the hypothesis is not disproven through repeatable relevant experiments. Once the theory can be shown to be 100% true no matter what the conditions are, then it becomes a law. As an example, consider this: You are standing in a meadow. You see one white sheep grazing. You can make a hypothesis stating that all sheep are white, based on this observation. Then you test your hypothesis by looking for more sheep and recording down their color. If all of the sheep you've seen are white, you could say that your hypothesis has not been disproven through repeatable experiments (looking at the color of sheep). Congratulations, your hypothesis is now a theory. Now unless you go around and observe every single sheep in the universe, you cannot know if your theory is true always. It is a theory, because there is a possibility that a black sheep is somewhere out there. But until you observe a black sheep, this theory is the best you have.

Talk about the big bang is getting into physics, which I love. Unfortunately, there is too much to explain, so I'll try to give a brief idea. There is an "extended version" of the Big Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang)called inflationary theory, which answers a lot of questions the original theory missed. Also, for anyone who has heard of string theory/M-theory (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/everything.html), it also predicts how/why the Big Bang happened. By the way, for anyone who doesn't know yet, Cosmic Microwave Background (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMB)proved the Big Bang.

just as giraffes evolved a long neck to eat from the trees as well.).
88.2% of humans use ton the left in the womb? It has been proven that animals also have limb dominance, and that this limb dominance is not by choice, but a phenomenon of the brain.

Giraffes didn't choose to grow a long neck it just happened one day and gave that particular giraffe an advantage over the others this is important to remember when thinking about evolution. As for the whole arm thing a wise man once said, and I qoute
"If the human brain were simple enough to be understood we wouldn't know a thing about it, because we wouldn't have the brainpower"

Wow, shoulda joined these forums a long time ago...

Anyway, I just came to post this:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2738/dbhpp3.png

Does turning up the mouse sensitivity count as cheating XD

Anyway, the Child's pet Cobra thing scared the hell out of me XD

swiftx05:
I liked your response on "number of eyes", but it was not really the point I was trying to get across. I think I can explain it with lungs a little better. Ok, so, when evolution decided that humans (well, really, it's earlier on the evolution chain than humans - let's call them "pre-humans") needed to breathe air and started to develop lungs, it would start with one lung, right? Evolution is stupid and takes the shortest path - the simplest conclusion. So, over millennia of evolving, it develops a lung. Then, it decides that one lung does not give enough capacity to take in oxygen. It needs more alveoli to collect oxygen. Logically, the simplest conclusion is to evolve the lung into a bigger lung: more volume means more alveolae, which means more oxygen entering the bloodstream. Evolution did not decide to do this, however, and started creating a second lung instead. A much more complex operation. This second lung just HAPPENED to be EXACTLY the same as the other lung in every way, including positioning (it was symmetrical).

As for the reason why "humans" evolved to become bipeds, I really have no clue at all what the answer is, and neither does anyone. It was just a guess.

As for limb dominance, I am not trying to say that 100% of humans are dominant with their right hands. I am saying that 88.2% of humans do. It is a statistical fact. To say that you have to prove that something is accurate 100% of the time is ludicrous. It's called statistics. No one can ever be sure a statistic is completely accurate, which is why any statistical analysis from any respectable source will include a confidence level and a margin of error. For example: 95% confidence level 19 of 20 times (this is a well known standard). 88.2% are dominant in their right hand. 11.8% are dominant in their left hand. If these numbers were closer together, you could argue that it's very possible that the margin of error could affect the ratio significantly, however, even using the maximum margin of error, the ratio is still VERY high.


meltedmuffin:

I don't see anywhere in my post where I said that giraffes chose to grow a long neck. Evolution chose this for them.

As for your quote, I am not trying to understand WHY this phenomenon of the brain happens, but am accepting the fact that it DOES and exploring theoretical effects on the right arm IF evolution did, in fact, occur.

It's almost sad how every time someone posts something having to do with creationitism or religion or whatever, everyone flips out and starts some friggin massive argument...anyways, pretty good update! But I always long for something like your crazy! =D

I don't see anywhere in my post where I said that giraffes chose to grow a long neck. Evolution chose this for them.
As for your quote, I am not trying to understand WHY this phenomenon of the brain happens, but am accepting the fact that it DOES and exploring theoretical effects on the right arm IF evolution did, in fact, occur.
evolution is not some other wordly god that messes with the existence of a species.
evolution is a phenomena that occurs out of necessity.

evolution is not some other wordly god that messes with the existence of a species.
evolution is a phenomena that occurs out of necessity.
I am using personification. I find that it is the easiest way to explain it. Evolution does not have a consciousness in any way.

it like this (yet another crappy metaphor)
when a monkey turns into a human, it is called evolution.
not
evolution turned a monkey into a man.

why are we so bothered about HOW we became how we are? its happened, and we cant alter it. cant we concentrate on whats GOING to happen?? at least we have some form of choice with that

it like this (yet another crappy metaphor)
when a monkey turns into a human, it is called evolution.
not
evolution turned a monkey into a man.
Why are you attacking the way I am portraying my arguments? Attack my arguments, not my style of writing - post something constructive.

Jordan:
The reason behind the limb dominance could be due to the development of the brain. The left and right hemispheres of the brain specialize in different areas. For example, the left hemisphere controls the right side of the body, and vice versa with the right hemisphere. Differences in the development of the hemispheres may account for the right-hand preference.

Having two of each organ ensures that you are able to survive in case one of a pair of organs becomes nonfunctional. We only have one liver maybe because there is not enough room/energy to sustain another one? Fortunately for the organs we have one of, they are able to regenerate to a certain extent (the liver can repair itself, the brain has some regenerative abilities, the skin can heal itself).

Answers to every question you might come up with may not be known. Science is all about discovery and learning.

why does every body get so technical in the front page news?

why are we so bothered about HOW we became how we are? its happened, and we cant alter it. cant we concentrate on whats GOING to happen?? at least we have some form of choice with that
If we knew how we came about, we could figure out how it will affect our species in the future.

not essentially true.

Yes gussa its not necessarily true, but chances are it will lead to something. If not we will at least have a more complete history and then well be able to move on to more important discoveries.

yes but we will never be able to say.
well if we evolved from monkeys, then humans would have to eventually evolve into birds!
or something along those lines.

snake + child = hilarious

science and religion are both based on a system of faith in another person's perception. the difference is that "science" uses logic to explain observable phenomena, while "religion" evaluates validity in relation to a logically derived conclusion - and yes, that is a very subtle difference.

But, your truth cannot be the same as my truth if we accept that we are different people.

Hypothetically, if he opened a jar of peanut butter and there actually was a peanut-butter based life-form inside, would he believe that God created it or would he believe that the factory equipment needed repair?

Anyway, "life from non-life" is a red-herring in a debate about evolution, and evolution is a red-herring in a debate about the existence of life. Science and religion both construct theories used to predict the outcome of events from previously observed data. You cannot prove you are right, you can only show that your theory has yet to produce what you consider to be false results.

... and now i return into complete obscurity...

Science is not a system of faith. Religion is. Science is using systematic methods to make observations about the real world, and then creating predictions from those observations. When you drop a ball from a certain height, science will be able to tell you how fast the ball will accelerate towards the ground, how fast the ball will be going at every point along its fall, and what will happen to the ball when it hits the ground. No religion can tell you information like that.

because we could just as easily evolve into a bear like species.

oh my goodness...


SOMEONE CLOSE THIS THREAD

you really don't know much about the front page news do you?

because we could just as easily evolve into a bear like species.

Given the right environmental and genetic conditions, this would be a possibility. And as a side note, we did not evolve from monkeys. Humans and monkeys share a common ancestor.

you understand my metaphor though?

Not really, because I don't know what/who you're referring to.

just because we evolved from some common ancestor we share with monkeys, it doesn't mean we will DEFINITELY evolve into another (specific) being....

evolution is not some other wordly god that messes with the existence of a species.
evolution is a phenomena that occurs out of necessity.

Speaking of evolution...

Raichu ftw! <3 I just got my pikachu in pokeyellow to evolve to raichu.

Lol just kidding anyway going back on topic...

---
(lawl @ lines)

I AM GODDDDD.

Speaking of evolution...
thats what weve been doing for the past four fucking pages!

just because we evolved from some common ancestor we share with monkeys, it doesn't mean we will DEFINITELY evolve into another (specific) being....

Yea that's true. With the technological advances we have now, we can live comfortably almost anywhere on the planet; Environmental pressures don't affect us as much anymore (unless it is something extreme, such as a cataclysmic event). But in general we adapt to fit our environment better. And after thousands of years of adaptations, humans in the future may have different features than the current human species, Homo sapiens (sapiens).

lol, 100th post.

you lose!

is that your catchphrase or sumit cause you say it all the time

no..
just....
people lose....
a lot.

well im goina say you win alot
people win alot too

k whatever...

a why do you nearly always end by saying ...

it means that i am yet to finish my input on this subject...

ok *&^%$£"!

that means im swearing

Wow, we went 10 posts so far without contributing anything to the science/religion debate.

yay go us!

lets keep this running.
i got a new watch today!

Yeah guys i gotta write an essay but Im not gonna!

you're so hardcore!

lol

what is the longest number of pages that frontpage new had got?

5

Totally irelivant. I think the old record was about 80. But I've only been here since 05.

totally irrelevant is good!

I didn't exactly mean that as a positive thing, but what the hell...
80 pages?! Are you sure?

I've noticed this on several Web sites, when religion comes up, all the jack holes need to get their jabs in... grow up.

OMG!!!!! look what i found on Newgroundshttp://denvish.net/ulf/250407/65175_score.PNG

I've noticed this on several Web sites, when religion comes up, all the jack holes need to get their jabs in... grow up.
you're pushing the line

Am I the only one that could see the guy holding the peanut butter during the last minute of the video about it was dubbed over?

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
the chain has been broken....
you bastard!

We were at 22 until he broke it!

i was hoping for more like 3 pages...

Might as well start over....
How many of you have an Xbox 360?

nope...
i have a life, a job, socks and a collection of 5 guitars..

What would you do with 5?
Also, how are we still posting here with two newer updates?

What would you do with 5?

there is more than 1 type of guitar. my five are
1.acoustic nylon string (soft sound. good beginners guitar)
2.bass (bass)
3.electric steel string (sharp sound. works well with distortion)
4.acoustic electric steel string (sharp acoustic sound. good for country songs)
5.12 string guitar. (just awesome)

Which one do you use the most?

top 3
1.12 string (its new so yeah)
2. electric steel string (goes well with my distortion)
3. bass (its a bass)

i would sometimes use the acoustic electric and i'm thinking of moving my acoustic to school so i can play it there....

All I can do on the guitar is play single notes :(. However, I play piano and I just won an organ lesson scholarship (free for one year!).

kool..

Wow, we own this page (and probably this thread from now on).

probably

Wonder how long we'll talk on this.

bout till the end of this post or so...